Black IT Pros on Diversity in Tech

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While pundits and analysts debate about diversity in Silicon Valley, one thing is very clear: Black Americans make up a very small percentage of tech workers. At Facebook, Google, and Yahoo, that number is a bit less than 2 percent of their respective U.S. workforces; at Apple, it’s closer to 7 percent.

According to the National Black Information Technology Leadership Organization (NBITLO) and the U.S. Bureau of Labor Statistics, blacks hold less than 8 percent of all information technology jobs in U.S., and fewer than 3 percent of IT leadership positions.

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Many executives and pundits have argued that the educational pipeline remains one of the chief impediments to hiring a more diverse workforce, and that as long as universities aren’t recruiting a broader mix of students for STEM degrees, the corporate landscape will suffer accordingly. But black IT entrepreneurs and professionals tell Dice that the problem goes much deeper than simply widening the pipeline; they argue that racial bias, along with lingering impressions of what a “techie” should look like, loom much larger than any pipeline issue. Statistics from the NBITLO indicate that only two out of five black people who graduate with a computer science or management information systems degree actually land a career in the field, even when the industry says it’s begging for workers.

Perceptions Matter

According to Greg Greenlee, a systems and network engineer at Cincinnati-based Appica and founder of Blacks In Technology, a networking and media organization, a combination of “conscious and unconscious bias” can often keep minority IT professionals and computer science grads from a job. “People seek out people in their circle or in their comfort zone and community,” he said. “They might not always mean to discriminate, but they end up doing it.” That can be a very real problem, because networking is often one of the best ways to find a job or move up the ranks.

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Charles Tendell, founder and CEO of Denver-based Azorian Cyber Security, a penetration-testing company, suggests that tech professionals usually connect at conventions or virtually, and that people gravitate to people they either know or who look like them. Tendell admits that he is often one of only a handful of black people at Black Hat or DEF CON conferences, yet he refuses to feel uncomfortable. Instead, he chooses to say: “I am unique.”

Financing a Business

Uniqueness could have an impact on the flow of cash to entrepreneurs. A recent study from Pepperdine University suggested that minority-owned businesses are 22 percent less likely to raise venture capital and get private equity investors than firms run by white men. CB Insights also found that the median amount of funding secured by an all-black founding team was $1.3 million, as compared to $2.2 million for a racially mixed team, and $2.3 million for an all-white team.

Tendell believes that money doesn’t always flow as quickly to tech firms owned by black people, whether it’s in the form of investment or sales: “I can send out a white senior sales person or my business partner, who happens to be white, and we go into client meetings, and I can give all of the answers, but the client will often choose to just talk to them.”

The Salary Gap

A study into H-1B visas by the American Institute for Economic Research (AIER) also found that black Americans in IT made, on average, $3,656 less than white workers. Nicole Kreisberg, senior researcher for AIER, told Dice: “Race does still matter.” (The study, she added, accounted for such variables as education, age, and geography.)

Salary inequities are definitely impacting black IT professionals, argues Andrew West, CEO of West Innovation Group, a Houston-based technology consultancy and mobile app development company, as well as CEO and founder of the NBITLO. The pay gap runs across the industry from lower level positions to manager roles.

Forging Ahead

For black IT professionals, the tendency might well be to work hard, not make waves, and hope things come your way, said Allen Westley, a computer systems security analyst at Northrop Grumman in Colorado Springs. But staying isolated or being complacent doesn’t pay. While it can be frustrating to be considered the “other” in a community when you are simply a techie at heart, Westley believes that black IT professionals have to be willing to step outside of their comfort zone, appear at conferences, and develop a proactive plan to get ahead: “You can’t simply keep your nose to the grindstone. Yes, race is still a problem. You have to make sure to deal with it on your own terms. You can’t be too sensitive either and misinterpret something. It’s all very personal.”

The pipeline is still a part of the equation, of course. The 2013 Taulbee Survey found that blacks made up 1.5 percent of Ph.D. graduates, 3.2 percent of those who earned master’s degrees, and 4.5 percent of those who earned bachelor’s degrees in computer science, computer engineering and information disciplines in the U.S. and Canada. Those figures have stayed pretty flat for more than a decade. Greenlee thinks the onus is on blacks currently working in tech to make themselves as visible as they can to help influence those numbers: “One of the keys to making inroads and stomping the digital divide is to help change the perception of what we and others think a computer scientist can look like. It swings both ways.”

He also points to a number of programs that position black children, high schoolers, and college students to think about a career in tech. Black Girls Code runs workshops and computer coding sessions across the country. #Yes We Code acts as a network of training initiatives for low income youth, and Hack the Hood hires and trains low-income minority youth to build websites for small businesses. CODE2040 mentors and places black and Hispanic software engineering students in internships with tech companies. “It’s all about creating a conversation about tech and keeping it important in our community,” Greenlee said.

Creating a Sense of Community

There are other networking organizations and events geared to black professionals and entrepreneurs, West said, including his organization’s NBITLO Urban Technology Weekend, a Houston-based summit featuring STEM programming, as well as professional and entrepreneur resources. The Urban Tech Fair does multi-city and virtual programming, offering tech workshops, entrepreneur showcases, and STEM events. Jacqueline Taylor-Adams, chairperson and CMO for the fair, says it’s meant to “showcase the talent, resources, and innovation that exists in our own backyard and community.”

But everyone can’t be an entrepreneur, said Hadiyah Mujhid, founder and developer at Good App Company, a San Francisco-based software firm, and co-founder of Black Founders, a nonprofit focused on entrepreneur education and startup financing. “I definitely think there has to be some type of motivation to make your own way,” she added. “But not everyone is able to make their own way and not everyone is going to be an entrepreneur, and that’s perfectly fine too.” Mujhid thinks that’s when the industry needs to get involved with black professionals and entrepreneurs to improve diversity in tech: “The tech community is beginning to have an interest in solving this problem. We all have to take ownership and create the solutions.”

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35 Responses to “Black IT Pros on Diversity in Tech”

  1. I despise the word “diversity” whenever I hear it. I just want to work with good people without regard to national origin or skin color. Maybe if blacks would respect education instead of saying that is “acting white”, take the tough classes, takie the tough majors, and stop separating themselves, things would be a lot better off. And STOP WITH THESE ARTICLES!

    • Joe, you probably despise the word diversity because it doesn’t apply to you. Your desire to just work with “good people” despite skin color coupled with the current racial demographics (like 3% in IT leadership) assumes that this represents all of the “good” black techies out there.

      There are way more out there than you see wherever you are located, and it’s about tapping into the potential of those kids more so than what you feel is encroachment on your “territory” in the job market.

      It’s sad because because views like yours are the types of attitudes that just add pressure to current black techies out there who are, according to this article are most likely working as the only minority in their company.

      And are you really going to gripe about these articles when Dice has had more awful and irrelevant ones in the past? This is a breeze compared to others. Please get rid of the hate Joe.

      • Although Joe’s comment is a little hostile (and totally unfair about the blacks’ attitude toward education), I have to admit I also don’t like the word “diversity” whenever I hear it. And I don’t like it because it does apply to me. I’m a Latina woman, with puts me in two “minority” categories. Before moving to the US, I just saw myself as a regular person working in tech. With good grades in college, good reviews at work and plenty of job opportunities because of my performance, not because of my ethnicity, gender, or social status (which by the way was not good). In the US, however, I hear the “diversity” word all the time, and sometimes I wonder whether recruiters reach me because they have to fit their company’s “diversity” metrics or if it’s about my skills. The former would be humiliating, unfortunately, I believe it’s part of the equation. I’d prefer to be treated and perceived as a regular person, judged by her merits and not by something she doesn’t control (like ethnicity, gender, or whatever people invented to label each other). The word “diversity” makes people notice they are different, and that somehow they are part of different groups. Before moving to the US, I never really thought about the fact that my best friends in school were a black girl and a gay boy, they were just regular people like anybody else. I was not hanging out with “minorities” or “diverse” people, I was hanging out with intelligent and interesting people. Am I to naïve on thinking that the word “diversity” brings division? Am I the only person who used to see everybody as equal before hearing so much about diversity, minorities, and blah blah blah? Nowadays, I confess it’s a little hard to see someone and do not think about the “group” they are part of. I hate this.

    • To Joe: What the hell you mean about blacks not respecting education??? That’s a stupid comment by a stupid person which is you… I graduated from DeVry class of 94′ with a BS/EE degree – nothing was easy about that – took the same classes as the white students – My nephew just received several scholarship offers from Cornell, Vanderbilt, Stanford, Georgia Tech – just to name a few – that a full ride – because he took his education seriously – Oh, he leaning towards Vanderbilt – his Dad which is my brother Graduated from Vandy in 89′ – I been in the IT Field for 20 years – I have been blessed to work for some major companies – Disney World, Lockheed Martin, and Charles Schwab – never had a problem finding a job, because I’m good at want I do – student of the IT field never becoming obsolete – biggest attribute I have is knowing how to respect people as people regardless of race, gender, and orientation – we call that interpersonal skill – Joe you are probably some disgruntle worker someone mad at the world.

    • Moishe Pupik DTM

      @Joe I feel weird about the word diversity. I feel the same kind of weirdness about vegetables when I was kid. It may sound(or taste) bad, but ultimately, could help. Anyway, I also want to work with good people without regard to national origin or skin color as well. You commented “Maybe if blacks would respect education instead of saying that is “acting white”, take the tough classes, takie the tough majors, and stop separating themselves” turned your reasonable, initial thoughts into a misguided, mini diatribe. First of all, I and most of the blacks in my circle do respect education. I got my BS in Computer Science w/ a minor in Mathematics and am half way through a MS in CS. This is not abnormal to me. I know plenty of blacks that have degrees and some are even professors in “tough majors”. The blacks that you mentioned (the disrespectors of education) are not a part of the equation. Those are the underachieving blacks that you see on television or the streets, the ones that don’t even respect themselves. Why would anyone expect that they be a part of technology? The blacks in consideration here are the ones that are actually qualified with degrees and experience but are still overlooked for a more “comfortable ilk”. I am surrounded by “techies” that are smart and white but some of them are NOT smart NOR educated. Yep. Raw privilege. Some fit a preconceived package of white, geeky, brilliant dropout, masters of Facebook, etc.. They ramble about “web socket this”, “social media buzzword that” etc.. but really don’t understand the fundamentals of CS nor the implications of technological mechanisms. They are one-trick ponies that use the hottest computing fad as their ticket. Is that respecting education? No is more like faking it to get a job or notariety. I think CHARLATAN might be a more accurate descriptor here. They NETWORK. They have accepting peers that are willing to assist them and give them a chance. Stop denying human nature. Birds of a feather flock together. You claim that blacks are separating themselves but yet you probably won’t admit that whites separate themselves by holding on to their own circle in a similar fashion. My father a retired business owner taught me years ago that you need a “white face” out front of your deals because whites are comfortable with whites and are HIGHLY reluctant to do business with blacks. I told him his thinking was old, archaic and his mental model of the world was tainted by Americas past. Sadly, I have learned over the years that I was the one with the wrong mental model and that America’s proclivity towards doubting the prowess of blacks outside the construct of a sporting event is alive, subliminal but active. It never stopped me from trying to contribute and stand as an example of a highly productive American who believes in the “abstract” concept of equality but I would be delusional if I didn’t understand that blacks that are interested in playing “the game” must still multiply their personal energy, overachieve to remove stigma in order to play at the same level of white because whites lean towards their own. In other words, blacks must not be average or just as good as a white male but black must be outstanding in order to in order to be considered equal. Challenge accepted. I agree with Joe on another point is correct though “STOP WITH THESE ARTICLES!”

  2. Here we go again. A bunch of people who choose an attribute other than “talent”, gather under that said attribute and proclaim how poorly represented they feel they are in the workforce.

    There are some 11% left handed people in this world, but I noticed that in our small startup, there were none. I think all left handed folks should start demonstrations out of our office until we satisfy some “left handed quota”.

    Please keep technology out of this diversity nonsense. If this field gets infected by this disease, the only thing the US remains competitive in the world today will also become history and the currently sad state of affairs will become sadder.

    • I would love to hear your analysis of the history of left handed people in this country. To include the legacy of that history today. What are some of the prevailing stereotypes about lefties that accompany them when they walk in to interviews or business meetings?

    • Spoken like a true head in the sand white person.

      You call diversity nonsense because it makes you feel unconformable about your own achievements that others often have less options and results from the same or even more hard work than you.

      I don’t blame you for your visceral reaction. But to suggest those suffering, those who are not like you, should just stop talking about it, serves no one but people like you. Non whites don’t exist just to make you feel better about yourself. Grow up.

    • APD, there are parts of your brain you are yet to discover, or may never discover. I can produce 100 black practitioners that would embarrass you to the point where you’d have to admit you really don’t know much of anything, and yes I get my jobs because i am always hired by people of my own race which don’t feel much if any insecurity due to my average “talents”

    • Recruiter

      As a recruiter, most of us are white, and most of the executive hiring teams are white. I have had to hire candidates not because they have talent, but because they happened to know someone. Regardless of what you may think there are many educated minorities who do not have a chance with being hired from the moment they enter the office for an interview. Key word: they are not a good fit. Wake up and just be honest.

  3. Steven James

    This article is twenty years past relavency. And the author is lazy, because of the need to call back on this tripe to be published.
    My last four IT positions have had a very extensive representation by black techies. Why is this? Because they had experience in the field. And they were paid accordingly. Experience = higher pay. Bargaining skills regarding experience = higher pay.
    I agree with the other comment. When education is valued in the overall black community, there will more black people advancing in all fields.

    • Andrew Tempel

      I agree on relevance. One of my best references is a black man who was a co-worker at one job, a subordinate at another, and my manager on a third. He is most respected (and liked) and very well paid. Meanwhile, nobody wants to hire a 70-year old white programmer with a pacemaker. I have been looking for six years (since the crash in 2008 and I lost half my nest egg.)

  4. Andrew Tempel

    Dear Myra, I cannot argue with your facts. However, I can describe some of my experiences.
    1) While working at USAID in the 1980s, I was replaced by a black female with much less education and experience when I returned from a vacation (It was a minority-owned firm).
    2) And in another contract job, my black boss (who only got the job because of a need to diversify) spent all his time on the job managing his rental properties – calling plumbers, etc. When I raised the issue, I was fired.
    3) And at GEICO, I worked in software QA. They put several black employees in my department because they were incompetent in their jobs in other departments. Hence, I had to do the work of three people, and when i complained, I was fired.
    And on an related note, I did not get into law school (UMBC) because they had a quota for women, even though I had much higher LSAT scores.
    Sorry, as a white Vietnam Veteran, i cannot sympathize on these issues. The problem may be in the US education system, Congress, or higher.

    • @Andrew, based on what you’ve been through, I am giving you honorary membership into Black society, Welcome to our life man. Just think if your parents, siblings, aunts, uncles, cousins, etc had to live through similar experiences. Now you’re felling the anger huh? I’m just saying. Good luck and be blessed.

  5. This is such a silly article in my opinion. Firstly it is not born out my experience. I currently work in a 40,000 seat financial services organisation and in our team across all disciplines there is a very good representation of black people. The whole network team is black. half of the server engineering team are black one third of the desktop engineering team are black. Over half the desktop support team are black. We have Black PMs and black managers and I myself being a black SME. Though the numbers here are higher than elsewhere it certainly is not unique. Being a contractor I’ve probably been in more locations over the past 5 years that most will be in their entire working life. Now having said this it is only in recent years that in general Black society has accepted IT as worthwhile professions. When talking to a colleague he suggests that his parents generation thought the only worthwhile professions for Black people to “make it” where Doctors Lawyers and teachers so maybe we clog up the pipeline with our own backward thinking. As for the paragraph about H-1b visas that is so irrelevant to the title of the article. The H-1B lottery is slewed by other factors that I wont go into here. This is not from hearsay or statistics either I hold an H-1b visa. As is the comment about Silicone valley. as if silicone valley is the only place or the yardstick by which It jobs can or should be measured. I do not mean to insult the article’s author but to me it reads like a Students assignment to “write an article on Black people in the IT workspace” with few facts supported by a few cherry picked statistics.

  6. STOP WITH THESE ARTICLES!? Sorry, Joe, ignoring bias (racial or otherwise) is not an effective strategy for minimizing it’s influence on hiring decisions or VC funding. We all interact with the world holding different biases which, when simply ignored, result in decisions that are often to the detriment of anyone not aligning with those biases. What is needed is acknowledgement of and proactive strategies for countering the very human propensity to prefer the familiar. This article definitely meets the “acknowledgment” requirement. My proposed solution applies primarily to those well intentioned people (which I think most people are) who unintentionally make biased decisions. An entirely different article is needed to address the people that intentionally make biased decisions.

  7. If there were a “whites” in technology group it would be deemed racist. You all say you want equal rights but you don’t you want special rights and preferential treatment over others because of the color of your skin not based on your skill set. I know plenty of minorities in the Tech fields, and they are there because they busted their ass just like the rest of us. I am a minority and my ancestors were slaves and are still discriminated against and I am offended by your attempt at making whites feel bad for you because you aren’t a significant part of the industry. Put in work and put on your big boy/girl pants and move up the ladder like everyone else.

    • Congrats on being a minority with ancestors that were slaves and still missing the entire point of diversity discussions!

      If the socioeconomic race in America began with its founding, you can’t expect that those who had a head start (white males) and those who were/are tied down with the weight of racism and discrimination should be at the same place today in the race. You can’t say “from today forward everyone is now equal in the race” in light of history and our current issues regarding race and class in America.

      The whole point of the article is to use science via statistics to show that even those who “put on their big boy/girl pants” are not able to move up the ladder like “everyone else”, even when their hard work and education is the same as their white counterparts. But you clearly don’t want to believe this is true and that will prevent you from understanding the facts and just reacting emotionally. I wonder what your ancestors would think.

      And whites don’t need a whites in tech group because they dominate the industry. A whites tech group is really just a tech group! That’s the whole point. If they were under represented in the industry, then there would thus be a need. And it wouldn’t be racist.

  8. Joe, your comments are insensitive and inaccurate. As a black IT professional I have encountered some of the issues mentioned in the article and was actually driven out of the industry for almost 10 years becuse the opportunities were not available and the racial inequalities were too much for a new college graduate to deal with at 21 years old. I reentered the industry about 6 years ago and the landscape is relatively the same but I have found success due to non indsutry related experience and confidence that I aquired during my IT hiatus. In short, I think programs of diversity and inclusion should be created to promote minorities in IT and to encoureage them to make a career in the industry.

  9. @Joe, I think you missed the point. The article is highlighting challenges for Blacks who DO take education seriously, and DO take the tough classes, and DO take the tough majors required to secure an IT position. The folks you mention are not part of the discussion.

    That being said, I do share the same disdain for the word diversity. Corporations use it generously and create bogus campaigns to supposedly foster diversity. It’s all smoke and mirrors because the real numbers don’t lie no matter how much you hate hearing about it. At the end of the day, they are hypocrites. Make no mistake, companies can put as much effort into hiring minorities as they put into hiring whites. They just choose not to. Corporate diversity is not a directive from the leadership. It’s a nice idea that sounds good.

    I transitioned from Telecom to IT about 8 years ago after a layoff. As the article recommends, I’ve been able to secure work and advance my role and compensation through performance, education, and networking. Establishing a brand for yourself is key as well. I’ll admit there are some things minorities can do better to socialize themselves and their brand. But believe me, there are no shortage of hoops from them to jump through. It’s not fair, but if you to remain diligent, it will pay off.

  10. Smoothe19


    As a young IT professional (22 years), I am a Lead Software developer (Yes Lead). I can say I have noticed a lot of the things highlighted in this article. There are not many of us to begin with in schools for CS or related degrees but the ones that do make it are discriminated against, not purposefully but just because people tend to stick to what they know.

    However I can say that I have had some good opportunities and also know fellow black colleagues with good positions. It is a struggle but we need to further break that barrier. I would like to walk in a room and immediately people that do not know me don’t automatically presume that I am clueless on the situation at hand just based on appearance.

  11. If Silicon Valley was in the South, then these numbers would change dramatically. There are thousands of blacks in IT. I’ve been in the industry for almost 20 years, and can assure you that their is no lack of talented black IT professionals. The reason these companies don’t have a more diverse workforce is because they are located in populations with fewer blacks. I bet you BellSouth and other southern based telecom and tech companies have a much higher number of blacks in their workforce.

    But the problem is really the investment community. All of the venture capitals are focused on Silicon Valley, and not the rest of the country. We need venture capitalist to diversify their portfolio and and scope.Triangle Park in North Carolina and Alpharetta in Georgia, are great places to start.

  12. As an educated woman of color who graduated first in her class and has excelled wherever I have gone, I find myself being passed over for opportunities and have been looking for a position that matches my qualifications for more than 2.5 years. Must be my fault, right? Of course, that is what people will think. Interviewers do not see me as one of “them” so I am overlooked. I am educated, attractive and communicate well. What I am not is white, male and under 40 years old.

    Let’s be honest and admit that in tech a white male with an Associate’s degree, who looks like hipster and loves to play cornhole will be selected over more qualified applicants of color. It happens to me all the time. This is also one of the major reasons that design rarely reflects the true needs of the users.

  13. SuperDOTnet

    I think we are focused on wrong things.What I see at my work and my friend’s workplaces, speaking strictly of IS/IT departments, 40% to 50% of employees are Indians from India. The H1-B employees being paid less is just pure BS. These employees even get positions they do not qualify for because the Indian invasion took over management positions at the same rate. As a side note our IT department is close to 3k workers whereas the whole company is 140?. I had the same rates if not worse at my 2 previous jobs that had 100k+ IT employees.

    White/black/yellow whatever you are which does not really matter, wake up, look around, and stop the Indian invasion and silent discrimination before it is too late.

    Regards and peace

    • Sorry but it is too late. The Indian invasion is now unstoppable. I am a Black British here on H-1B and consider myself very fortunate to have got in separate from throngs of Indians that make it every year, The invasion is actually caused by a different phenomenon which goes back a long time. This is not the place for me to explain it in full but it is actively supported and encouraged by the India government policy. Way back when the Apple 2e first came out in about 1997/8 the Indian government made it a policy to put these devices in every school and made some form of computer training mandatory. Then later on Microsoft certs became part of their degree requirements. So the result was that they had a workforce trained out of school to fill the requirements of such firms as the one based in Seattle. (have you ever been to the campus there its quite disturbing the way it has become a microcosm of middle class India) Now when you consider the average wage in India there is a lot of room for a vast differential between what an Indian can accept as take home pay compared to an American living in lets say Illinois. Like you I despair at the way its turned out but it is a sad fact of life now. Also the number of recruitment agencies that have MSDN spawned out of this biased situation is also unsettling to say the least. As a contractor I am fed with being approached by broken English speaking recruiters wanting me to work for ridiculously low money just to fill a seat. I must close now before I get into a full blown rant on what is one of my biggest thorns in my ide in this regard

  14. Although this article overall speaks of the shortage of black engineers, there is another minority within that group and that is black female engineers. To Joe’s comment about not taking education seriously let me state this: Joe I hold a BS and a MS in IT and currently pursuing a PhD and PM/SME, having said that many of us in the field took the same course as others and have the experience. Furthermore, historically speaking in black families education is highly stressed it just that some of us love math and science and others chooses liberal arts classes. No disrespect to them but you must have the desire and love for STEM.

    In regards to the overall hiring of black IT professionals, I agree we are often overlooked because of longstanding stereotypes and bias. Many of us are quite educated and qualified to do the job only thing that we ask is come out of your comfort zone and allow us to excel.

  15. ANONY you are so right. I recently interviewed with a company down in nashville for a mysql position. The person I interviewed with just happened to be a foreign guest worker. Now I didn’t enter the interview with any preconceived ideas or knowing that I wouldn’t get the job because when ever I have interviewed with such in the past I didn’t get the job. No I gave him a fair chance something I thought he would do with me, I found out I was ruled out for the position due to The interviewers unwillingness to accept I understood more about mysql and the makeup of the engines behind it than he did. I am currently 0 for 30 when interviewing with them. No I hold a Computer Science Degree Along with a Mechanical Engineering Degree and to top it off I got My business admin as well. Now I have always been the only black in most of the positions I’ve work for various companies. Personally I being an introvert to begin with was never really bothered by all the white people I see. Even in school I was the only one of literally hundreds of graduates. Now see I only mention the above with that job interview as I to have seen it done to me many times over and it still boggles my mind to see that the good old boy network is alive and kicking. I recently interviewed for a helpdesk position demanding a comp sci degree. Now that wouldn’t bother me so much if the guy doing the interview had one or even someone on his team he managed but no guess what they all have? You got it they have BIS degree. Why do I say that with such disrespect. Simple really. When I was in college the business school was a place we comp sci students went to play and throw the grading off because in most bcis classes they would grade on a curve so the Business department finally got wise to what we were doing and pretty much put the kibosh on comp sci students taking any bcis courses by stating none of them could take anymore if they weren’t a business school student majoring in a business area hence my business degree….;) to funny. When I graduated from college I finished just 16 credits shy of a bachelors in math….hahahahahahaha I hate math.