Don’t Expect H-1B Rules to Change In 2013

Tech workers have a dog in the fight for immigration reform but their anxiety about H-1B visas may not be relieved in the short term. According to the U.S. Citizenship and Immigration Services (USCIS),  the H-1B cap for 2013 will remain unchanged.

H-1B 2011If anything’s different next year, it may be that companies hit the cap sooner. “We’re expecting the cap to be used up in April or by May at most,” says immigration attorney Sheela Murthy. She adds that may be a sign that the economy is picking up and that companies are hiring.

Complicated Law

The H-1B program touches a nerve among American tech workers. They contend employers are bringing in foreign workers to take their jobs because they can pay them less. Meanwhile, companies like Microsoft continually call for the cap to be raised. The whole issues evokes such strong emotion that it’s nearly impossible to have a civil discussion about it. (Just read the comments on this post.)

Created by Congress in 1990 to shore up hiring in science and technology, the program has a limit of 65,000 new visas a year. In reality, the number can vary wildly depending on renewals and special exemptions for workers in research and non-profit organizations. And H-1Bs aren’t the only visas that make way for guest workers. The L-1 visa is often used for certain managerial and specialized skills.

The system is in such disarray that a 2011 report from the Government Accountability Office criticized the program as failing to protect U.S. workers’ rights. It stated that the lack of integration between the four federal agencies who administer the program has prevented an accurate accounting of the number of H-1B holders now working in the country. (A CIS spokesman says the agency can’t project how many H-1Bs will go to tech workers in the coming years.)

Reform Proposals

What would immigration reform look like? Neil Ruiz, lead author on immigration from the non-profit Brookings Institution, says it would take a crystal ball to predict the direction U.S. immigration policy will take in the future, though he does believe that these contingencies could come into play:

  • The STEM Bill: Although the Republican-dominated House passed this bill allowing 55,000 visas for those with advanced degrees in math, science, technology and engineering, Democrats in the Senate killed it on Dec. 5. IEEE USA, the electrical engineering organization, advocated the House bill to divert those 55,000 visas from “the diversity lottery,” which requires only a high school degree and two years’ work experience. The lottery was designed to increase immigration from under-represented countries. The IEEE asked why higher-skilled immigrants from Africa, for instance, were left waiting for visas when a less-skilled workers could land one by chance. Ruiz believes Senate Democrats will eventually back some version of the proposal, but are lining up behind President Obama’s effort to forge some kind of comprehensive reform bill.
  • Startup Visas: This two-year visa would make it easier for foreign-born entrepreneurs to stay in the U.S., as long as they had backers investing at least $100,000 in their company. Beyond two years, visa holders would be required to show they had created at least five jobs and either raised another $500,000 in funding or generated that amount in U.S. sales. This proposal is gaining bipartisan support.
  • The DREAM Act: For a decade, proposals to create a path to citizenship for undocumented young adults whose parents brought them here as children have been blocked. However, last summer the Obama administration created the Deferred Action for Childhood Arrivals program, which offers a two-year reprieve from deportation for qualified applicants. Both Ruiz and Murthy say that Latino growth in the U.S. and the community’s political clout will bring both parties to the table on this one.
  • Microsoft’s Proposal – The software maker has proposed that companies pay more for H-1B visas, with the extra money used to improve U.S. K-12 STEM education. Microsoft wants Congress to lift the visa cap and free up an additional 20,000 green cards. Tech workers have slammed the idea as just another Microsoft ploy to increase H-1B hiring. Last month, the non-partisan Economic Policy Institute accused Microsoft of exaggerating the STEM labor shortage. Although about $1 billion in fees have been collected from the visa application process over the last decade, Brookings found that none of the money has been used to set up training for U.S. workers in proportion to demand for H-1B workers.
  • Standing Commission: The Brookings Institution advocates a return to the idea of having an independent group of experts help determine the number of immigrants allowed into the country. Much like Australia and Britain do, the U.S. panel would use a points-based system to match immigrant skills with employer needs. “That [approach] could be more nimble to the needs of the United States,” says Ruiz. “We’re hoping that Congress comes up with a method based on the actual data.”

Ruiz thinks the President, who’s vowed to make the issue a priority, will first look for a big immigration overhaul. Should that fail, he may divide its many parts, such as the STEM bill, so they could be handled separately from more controversial issues such as the DREAM Act.

After 25 years in immigration practice, Murthy finds it hard to believe that real change will happen any time soon. She sees the Republicans and Democrats as being too far apart on the issue to create any meaningful legislation. “I don’t know that we have the deepest desire to really, really re-examine everything from a fresh slate,” she says.

238 Responses to “Don’t Expect H-1B Rules to Change In 2013”

  1. ConfusedCountry

    If American workers are in short supply so that we need more H1-B’s, how come almost all the American programmers I know had to train their replacements at LEAST once over the past 10 years?

    I can answer your question. Answers are:

    1. (removed by editor)
    2. They do not want to move.
    3. If they do opt to move, they would like to have 25 K in moving expenses. H1-B workers is younger with less baggage. For him, it costs 269 dollars (one way Southwest ticket) to move from NYC to SFO.
    4. 1 in 5 American is over 65. 65 year old software person is not capable to learn Ajax. H1-B worker is.
    5. And, they are cheaper than American workers. Your very own CEOs love them. H1-B workers look good on company balance sheet.

    • This cannot possibly be for real. It’s too much of a caricature, particularly No. 4.

      But just because I enjoy talking about it, I recently ran a half-marathon in Philadelphia. I’m now doing a P90X/Insanity/X2 hybrid, after which I’m going to train for my 2nd half in Pittsburgh on Cinco de Mayo, with an eye on the full 26.2 here in Philadelphia next November.

      I have yet to meet a hiring party who would last through the first 10 minutes of a P90X or Insanity workout (especially Insanity), or who could run even one mile, let alone 13.1 or 26.2. In fact, one guy crumpled up my resume in front of me–in part–because I told him that I completed P90X several times, while he gave up after, like, day two because it was too hard for him. I don’t think he liked being smoked by a bird. He’s probably rather have hired a morbidly obese person.

      Oh, and *nobody* can move for only the cost of a plane ticket. Even an H-1B needs a place to live, and even boarding houses require a security deposit and first month’s rent up front; traditional landlords usually want first and last plus the security deposit.

    • ConfusedCountry


      So the reason I had to train my replacement (people like you) is because I eat too much 🙂

      I don’t want to move? I’ve worked all up and down the east coast and paid my own expenses. I can’t learn AJAX? I have been programming for 35 years and am fluent in about 12 languages. It seems to me that you are so green that you don’t even know what you don’t know.

      I agree with #5, you are cheaper. But I am right now fixing and practically had to completely rewrite a failed outsourced project, so I would say that you may be cheaper by the hour, or by the dozen, but you are certainly not cheaper.

    • ConfusedCountry

      @Kumar #4 “software person is not capable to learn Ajax”.

      I will agree that India has more programmers than all of the rest of the world combined. However, even though that is true, and has been true for many years, nothing complicated is ever invented in India. No Operating Systems are from India. No languages were invented in India. No databases come from India. None of the Application nor WebServers come from India. None of the modern frameworks in use today comes from India. None of the browsers. The internet, cell phones, and ALL the computers that India has, has been invented here. — and oh yes, you brag about AJAX ! Some trivial asynchronous programming protocol to send XML back and forth to a Server? You have to be kidding right? Oh, and lets refresh my memory, wasn’t AJAX invented by Jesse James Garrett in 2005?

      200 hundred years from now, History will remember all the great accomplishments of the American programmers and a footnote will say “….and oh yes, the AJAX was provided by the Indians after the Americans invented it for them”.

    • Charlie Wayne

      It’s not true. I saw it all while working for the top 500 US companies in US. They become so greedy and this must stop to save IT jobs in US. We lost the whole generation for the legacy or mainframe jobs in US to India due to IBM and other big IT companies kept sending jobs offshore and laid off the skillfull, experienced IT technicians here.

    • Common Man

      Well…. Kumar, do you happen to be an H1-B worker? …
      There are more than a few 65 year old American’s that can learn Ajax or anything else they need to. They were mastering harder stuff when many H1-B’s were in diapers. Or helping to invent the technology.
      As far as moving goes – it seldom comes to a case of “moving”. Especially not in high tech concentration areas. But the story is the same there. Ditto for the 25K to move. Only a few companies even do it any more. Only for FTE positions. Not contractors. Those things have little to nothing to do with it.
      But the last point – Cheap labor…. That hits it right on the head. BUt a funny thing, many of the shops that rely on off-shore or high percentage of H1-B’s seenm to tuern out inferior software. Maybe the old saying holds some truth after-all: You get what you pay for.

  3. Perturbed Pundit

    Note in the data below that in those IT occupations that saw a year-over-year loss of jobs, there were still over 1,000 foreign labor applicants for those occupations. Even in those IT occupations that saw a year-over-year job gain, foreign labor applicants exceeded job growth. These facts absolutely disprove the labor shortage thesis.

    From the National Center for Education Statistics – U.S. Citizen and Permanent Resident IT-Related Degrees Conferred 2008 and 2009:

    Computer and Information Sciences and Support Services
    Doctorate Degrees: 974
    Doctorate Degree-Research Scholarship: 423
    Master’s Degrees: 19,387
    Bachelor’s Degrees: 73,795
    Associate’s Degrees: 57,910
    Total 2008 and 2009: 152,489

    From the 2010 Foreign Labor Certification Annual Report – the corresponding IT occupations with more than 1,000 Permanent (Resident) Labor Certifications, with the Occupational Employment Statistics employment levels and gain/loss:

    Computer Software Engineers, Applications
    OES Employment 2009: 495,500
    OES Employment 2010: 499,280
    Employment Gain/Loss: 3,780
    Number of Foreign Labor Certifications: 9,854

    Computer Systems Analysts
    OES Employment 2009: 512,720
    OES Employment 2010: 495,800
    Employment Gain/Loss: (16,920)
    Number of Foreign Labor Certifications: 5,695

    Computer Software Engineers,Systems Software
    OES Employment 2009: 385,200
    OES Employment 2010: 378,920
    Employment Gain/Loss: (6,280)
    Number of Foreign Labor Certifications: 4,038

    Computer and Information Systems Managers
    OES Employment 2009: 287,210
    OES Employment 2010: 288,660
    Employment Gain/Loss: 1,450
    Number of Foreign Labor Certifications: 1,893

    Computer Programmers
    OES Employment 2009: 367,880
    OES Employment 2010: 333,620
    Employment Gain/Loss: (34,260)
    Number of Foreign Labor Certifications: 1,536

    Total – IT-Related Occupations With More Than 1,000 Permanent Labor Certifications Employment Gain/Loss: -52,230

    So, in summary:

    Total U.S. citizen and permanent resident computer science & information science degrees (i.e., NOT liberal arts degrees) conferred 2008-2009: 152,489


    23,016 foreign labor certifications in 2010 = 175,505 (supply)

    Total – IT-Related Occupations With More Than 1,000 Permanent Labor Certifications Employment Gain/Loss between 2009 and 2010: -52,230 (demand)

    Source Data:
    National Science Foundation WebCASPAR (Educational Statistics)

    U.S. Department of Labor
    2010 Foreign Labor Certification Annual Report

    Bureau of Labor Statistics: Occupational Employment Statistics

    U.S. Government Accountability Office – “Reforms Are Needed to Minimize the Risks and Costs of Current Program”, Jan 14, 2011

  4. American companies are all about the bottom line. They want to import cheap labor to drive down the wages here. That is a FACT. Read the Congressional studies and legislation from the 90s that ramped up the H1B VISA craze. Then they started moving jobs over seas. So the American worker gets the shaft each time because Congress follows the money. It stopped working for Americans a long time ago.

    • Common Man

      Yes, that one is interesting. I hadn’t realized that there are very large companies that fly-in entire plane loads of “consultants” direct from India for 6 month shifts. The they all go back. One company i used to work for that has a large IT shop (several thousand people) that used to have aabout 5% contractors is now staffed about 80% by the 6 month “commuters” plus has additional groups still off shore. That raises overall non-us worker staffing to well over 90%.
      And that is just one place of many. It’s great we support the world economy. When do we support our own country and our neighbors?

  5. In my opinion, the H-1B program needs to end. I used to work in Industrial Electronics. I reached a point where I couldn’t advance in farther on the merits of my Assciate Degree, and my experience alone (I have probably been soldering electronic circuits since I was 8 years old). I returned to school and obtain first a B.S. in Computer Science, followed by an M.S. in Computer Science. There was an amazing lack of internships available when I was approaching graduation, so my experience is somewhat limited. I graduated in 2006, and since that time, the only job I’ve had was a brief temp job with the statue unemployment insurance office as a data entry clerk!

    Just yesterday, I interviewed for a position of Security Guard at a local business. It pays $8.50 per hour. I haven’t gotten Costco, Wallmart, or Home Depot to even respond to my applications. I am constantly reading about the tech-crunch in this country, and how more workers need to be imported…so where ARE all these jobs?

    • I understand your difficulty finding job in IT without any experience! I’ve experienced it personally! But if you are willing to work hard (and I believe you do as you’ve BS, MS) , nothing can stop you. You’ve to look for what is in demand (Java/.NET/Analysts), not just in your area but anywhere in US. I made mistake initially not looking for work outside of area I lived in. Do a certification. SCJP helped in my case. My background – came as an immigrant, completed my BS in Comp. Science. Initially struggled but found IT job (through hard work, continuous learning, and dedication). I hope best for you and please do contact me if you need any guidance.

    • Mr Steve, Soldering is a skill you develop over the years, but it dosent make business sence as the soldering machines can do better job at cheaper price than you can. Did you consider washing dishes? I mean loading dishes into dish washing machine?

      • In 1977, I worked in an electronics factory. Most of the work I did involved point-to-point wiring of card-cages. I did other types of assmebly, too, as needed. I worked a regular, 8-hour shift, 40 days a week. I also worked 1.5 hours of overtime 5 days a week, and 5 hours of overtime on Saturdays. I had to drive 35 miles one-way to work, too. When I went home in the evening, I worked in my dad’s restaurant. The restaurant was on the lot adjacent to the house property, so I just had to walk out the back door. My job in my dad’s restaurant was, oddly enough, washing dishes. For that first year that he had the restaurant, there was no dishwasher: I washed the dishes by hand at a 3-tub sink just inside the back door. I did this for zero-pay. My factory job paid me $2.50 per hour. I walked in and after a soldering test, I was hired on the spot.

  6. I’ve got news for everyone. Even if the H-1B program ended tomorrow, and even if every single H-1B holder were immediately deported–heck, even if every single immigrant in the country were deported alongside them–there still would exist no opportunities for tech workers, particularly entry-level tech workers. The companies that hire H-1B’s would NOT replace them with Americans. They would simply pull up stakes and move offshore. In fact, I *guarantee* all of these companies have a “doomsday” plan to do so should the H-1B visa program should be abolished.

    Instead of continuing to beat this dead horse, tech workers and graduates need to resign themselves to the fact that there are simply no jobs in this industry, and that we must do something else. (Or you can keep chasing rainbows and smashing your head against walls; that, of course, is up to y’all personally.)

    I will never stop being angry at myself for flushing five years of my life down the toilet, and going into outrageous debt, to get a Math/CIS degree that’s not worth the paper it is printed on. But I must move past it. I frankly don’t know what I will do next. I’ve tried a couple of [non-tech] things that didn’t work out, for various reasons. The biggest reason is that I spent five years thinking I’d enter the tech field, only to discover that this was never going to happen. I was never told what else I could do, what my Plan B could be if tech did not work out. I wish there were resources available for dislocated tech graduates. There are some starting to pop up for dislocated JD’s. I could really use some help figuring out how I can reach my full potential, despite this blasted STEM degree and the time I wasted getting it.

    I wish I had spent those five wasted years, and all that money, building a business opportunity. I cannot get that time or money back, but if I can run 13.1 miles–something very few people in the world ever accomplish–I should be able to accomplish building a money-making opportunity…something I have seen absolute, utter MORONS accomplish.

    • James Green1

      “. The companies that hire H-1B’s would NOT replace them with Americans. They would simply pull up stakes and move offshore. In fact, I *guarantee* all of these companies have a “doomsday” plan to do so should the H-1B visa program should be abolished.”

      Then let them go and bar them from doing business in the United States. Revoke the companies top executives U.S. citizenship and Exile them to their h1b visa holders home country. Believe me, those companies that leave will be replace by hungry entrepreneurs and patriot corporations that believe in American workers. We in this country need to make it so uncomfortable and expensive for companies to outsource they will think twice before doing it. We need to make politicians revoke current outsourcing laws and make them afraid to introduce new ones or face primary challenges to remove them from office.

      • All of this would require yet more government. The government is corrupt enough as it is without giving it yet MORE power, especially the power to revoke citizenship of individuals who do things the government doesn’t like.

        I don’t want more government. I want less. Actually, I want NONE, but I’ll compromise and settle for a minarchy.

      • Obama is my hero

        >>Then let them go and bar them from doing business in the United States. Revoke the companies top executives U.S. citizenship and Exile them to their h1b visa holders home country.
        Dice News in Tech (

        HAHAHa… one of the dumbest, most idiotic comments on the internet. No wonder we need H1bs.

    • Are you serious? I can’t believe that. I see dozens of tech jobs everyday in the United States… The recruiters seems desperate. And it’s not only in US, I see that all over the world.
      Moreover, you can always develop something by yourself to get some experience. The internet and mobile market is full of opportunities.
      Sorry, I just cannot believe there are no opportunities for creative and qualified people…

      • drgenenelson

        Qualified and talented people are routinely screened out of technology positions in the U.S. I wrote my first program while in high school in 1968. Sometimes, in order to obtain a job, I have intentionally left off my science and engineering Ph.D. or other relevant background.

        The H-1B Visa program has become a key tool for facilitating this discrimination against hiring experienced American citizen technical professionals. Search by title for the PDF version of the 2012 report, “How Record Immigration Levels Robbed American High-Tech Workers of $10 Trillion.” A tabulation shows 6,540,370 H-1 and H-1B Visa admissions to the U.S. between 1975-2010. This is a large fraction of the total science and engineering (S&E) positions in the U.S., so this labor glut has driven down wages strongly. After taking inflation into account, the salary paid for most U.S. S&E positions has been flat since the H-1B Visa was created in 1990.

  7. drgenenelson

    The greedy special interests that continue to lobby for more STEM Visas likely have their own financial interests at heart, rather than what is good for the nation. I recently authored an article that estimates that the present extremely liberal higher-skilled immigration policy has taken about $10 trillion from the pockets of the American middle class and transferred it to economic elites. (1.)

    However, there is another casualty: Innovation. It typically takes a long time for good ideas to be nurtured to the point that they create new wealth. Many good ideas are now destroyed in the relentless mass terminations facilitated by high skill labor gluts. A much better idea would be to restore the pre-1976 immigration policies that nurtured American creativity and yielded such “firsts” as transistors, integrated circuits, and the means to put a man on the moon and return them safely.

    Note that any claim that a high tech business can simply pick up and move to a low-labor-cost nation such as India or Communist China is not supported by fact. Neither nation provides meaningful protection for an American firm’s intellectual property. Furthermore the errors and delays introduced by being 12 time zones away will eventually cost more for these employers than any advantage related to relocation. Think of the parlor game “telephone” as an illustration of the problems.

    The H-1B Visa program – and similar work visa programs should be immediately terminated, as it was passed with the assistance of fraudulent employer-interest claims in 1990. Even free-market advocate Milton Friedman called the H-1B Visa program a “government subsidy” program in a 2002 ComputerWorld article as it allows employers access to higher-skilled workers for below-market wages. Furthermore, Kamal Nath, Commerce Minister of India was quoted in a 15 April 2007 New York Times article as saying that the H-1B Visa is the “outsourcing visa.”


    1. Search by title for the PDF version of the 2012 report, “How Record Immigration Levels Robbed American High-Tech Workers of $10 Trillion”

    2. S&E Glut Statistics: Lowell, B. Lindsay and Harold Salzman. (2007). “Into the Eye of the Storm: Assessing the Evidence on Science and Engineering Education, Quality, and Workforce Demand.” Research Report for The Urban Institute. This report is available at Professor Salzman’s Rutgers University website.

    3. Search by title for the PDF version of the 2007 report, “The Greedy Gates Immigration Gambit.” You will learn how Microsoft retained corrupt uber-lobbyist Jack Abramoff and his team in 1994. Some members of “Team Abramoff” such as Michael Smith are STILL lobbying on behalf of Microsoft for more H-1B Visas. The author estimates that Microsoft and its proxies expended about $100 million in politically-connected expenditures between 1995-2000. In return, Microsoft helped to procure 3 “Microsoft friendly” changes to H1-B Visa legislation during the same period. The cumulative economic benefit in salary and benefit avoidances to Microsoft is estimated to be in excess of $5 billion, or a roughly 50:1 ROI.

    • jelabarre

      @DRGENENELSON: the problem with your points is it implies corporations think *past* the next fiscal quarter. The cost of making sure each quarter outperforms all the prior ones is to destroy the future viability and survival of the company. Which those MBA-holding executives don’t care about, because by then they will have jumped ship to some other lucrative position that pays more that the place they left. So they just keep eating the seed corn and jumping to the next victim. It was once said an MBA could leave business school and run ANY company. That’s sort-of correct; they can run any company into the ground.

      • drgenenelson

        I agree with your perspective. Sadly, for only a small minority of employers, the key decision makers have a scientific or engineering background. It seems like most of the decision makers are economic elites who have no problem implenting policies of economic class warfare, since their definition of success appears to be to enrich themselves.

    • ollieallears

      You state that US immigrations policy re. skilled labor is ‘extremely liberal’. But anyone who tried to immigrate into the US on a labor based petition, knows that the US is extremely limited in the number of workers it admits.
      The number of non-immigrants allowed in on H1B visa yearly is just over 100,000. The number of work related green cards issued is under 150,000 (in the past 125,000). And this total includes non-working spouses, children, as well as the recipients of investor visa – the creation of a certain # of jobs for USers is a condition for those.
      US Immigration politics is based on family reunion – that’s where 550,000 visa are issued. And then another 50,000 for Diversity Lottery winners.
      You think all those permanent immigrants stay home until they die of malnutrition ? I think they go out and look for and take a job. Preferably in IT etc.

      And it is because the US sells products all over the world that it is a good idea to have workers – and their creativity – from all over the world.

      • drgenenelson

        There is an immigration visa program for truly creative immigrants called the “O” Visa. Employers tend to not be interested in “O” Visa holders because their visa does not have the de-facto indentured labor aspect that many work visa programs such as H-1B have. As many posts here have noted, H-1B Visa holders are not known for their creativity.

        The United States admits more immigrants than the rest of the world combined – I believe that fits most people’s description of “extremely liberal.” Your posts come across as someone that wants even more immigration. I wonder why… Perhaps you or someone close to you is seeking U.S. citizenship after immigration. Seeing the myriad harms of excessive levels of immigration to the U.S. since 1990, I want an immigration policy that serves the national interest of the United States instead of serving special interests.

      • ollieallears

        If you state ‘the US allows a large number of immigrants in’ you are correct, but the US is a big country. Some smaller countries allow more immigrants in relative to their population.
        And, again, the number of permanent immigrants allowed because of a job is very limited (under 150,000 a year). Over 550,000 immigrants come because of marriage. Diversity Lottery: 50,000.
        So if you want to limit the number of immigrants, you are looking at the wrong category – in my opinion.

        I do have a problem with how you simply qualiy all H1B holders as not creative, not good at their job etc. Give me the proof, give me the numbers !

  8. drgenenelson

    The H-1B and similar work visa programs are fundamentally “cheap labor” programs. Search for BOTH phrases “Matloff” and “H-1B” to locate Professor Matloff’s webpage regarding this topic.

    • I agree with you. The program provides cheap labor (development, thinking, problem solving, and possibly also manual labor) for companies. On the other hand, if they don’t bring in workers who will work for less, then the possibility exists that the company will relocate off of American (assuming the US) shores…so it is a no-win for America and its citizen workers.

      • drgenenelson

        Try as they might, employer interests have not been able to repeal the truism that “you get what you pay for!” There are many costs associated with the H-1B Visa program including the loss of intellectual property.

      • You are correct DRGENENELSON. I am currently working with two contractors from India who were hired based on their “experience” developing the product, but I have spent a lot of time training them (which means that I am not doing something else). The company outsourced the work because of the fixed bid, but I believe it neglected to consider the costs (my salary for example) of training them and failed to look beyond that initial number on a piece of paper for the outsource. There isn’t much that I can do about it, but I would have preferred to have an intern or an intern-to-permanent hire who also would have to be trained, but is more likely to stick around after the work that needs to be done, is done. Human capital is very expensive for companies and turnover is undesirable…if those costs are considered before outsourcing or losing valuable knowledge and talent. In a previous position, the decision was made to hire no new engineers in the US and instead to off-shore (not outsource) to India. Yes, on the face of it, this was cheaper, but no hours were tracked in explaining the industry, the purpose of the product, how to develop it further, webex and phone costs, and the like. Those hours spent and those costs were absorbed elsewhere…but they are still costs. Finally, yes there are plenty of citizens who can be trained to do this work…probably several, if not all, in this discussion thread alone.

  9. The opinion of H1B visa’s are thoroughly misguided. The fact is that there isn’t enough skill in the country to fill its demand for technical labor. Students aren’t being churned out fast enough.
    I don’t know where Susan got her facts from as far as salaries go but H1B’s do not get paid less than American workers. It costs a company more to hire an H1B employee. That is how the government has setup the system. If anyone here ever research how to get an H1B there would be some understanding of how the system has been setup to allow American workers to succeed. The system is extremely strict and does not allow employers to pay H1B employees less than an american worker in a similar position.
    Your threat is not a visa. It is people’s own stupidity to play the fool in college and not understand what the market demands. There is a reduced demand for engineers! There is a reduced demand for managers. The demand is in the field of Information Technology! Get a clue and start working towards an industry that actually requires more people! Stop blaming the government for your inability to get a job. That is how the world works child!

    • Hi David. Thanks for your comment. Just to clarify about pay, you’re correct that employers have to make H-1Bs the same amount as they would an American employee. However, there’s a widespread assumption that either that the guest workers are paid less.

      • Neither one of you HAVE A CLUE! The LCA data is readily available from the Department of Labor, and H-1B visa recipients are NOT paid a comparable amount to qualified workers. H-1B visas are CLEARLY here to reduce labor costs by replacing US workers, with cheap, entry level workers from the third world, primarily from India and Communist China.

    • drgenenelson

      What a load of horse manure! When the nonpartisan Government Accountability Office issues report after report about the wide loopholes in the H-1B Visa program so that foreign workers may be paid less than Americans, I know that you are making up your claims. There are enough clues in your post that suggest that you are a non-native American English speaker. The H-1B Visa program was designed by employer interests to make it easy for the employer to force the experienced American citizen technical professional to train their H-1B Visa holder replacement as a condition for the American to receive their meager outplacement benefit. This program is long-overdue for termination.

    • Dave, your comment of “The fact is that there isn’t enough skill in the country to fill its demand for technical labor. Students aren’t being churned out fast enough.” was very interesting. Kindly tell me where I can get hired! I was churned out in 2006 with my MS in Computer Science. I was churned out in 2001 with my BS in Computer Science. I can be reached several ways, most notably my firstnamelastname at gmail account. I am familiar with the usual C, C++, assembly language stuff. More than sufficiently familiar with Microsoft Office, having had to use it extensibly to write reports and compositions for several of my classes. I’m currently self-studying C#, and learning PHP as needed for my web site. I make use of MySQL occasionally, and have recently setup my 4th web site using WordPress. That _should_ qualify me for something, any I am only looking for something at entry-level anyway.

      I was just turned-down for the position of part-time temporary security guard, and enviable position that pays a whole $8.50 per hour because somebody else was “a better match”.

      • Voted for Obama!

        >>I am familiar with the usual C, C++, assembly language stuff. More than sufficiently familiar with Microsoft Office, having had to use it extensibly to write reports and compositions for several of my classes. I’m currently self-studying C#, and learning PHP as needed for my web site. I make use of MySQL occasionally, and have recently setup my 4th web site using WordPress. That _should_ qualify me for something, any I am only looking for something at entry-level anyway.

        If you need to mention Office as one of your “skills”, then you probably don’t have much experience to show in real world programming. Currently you are “familiar”, “self studying”, “learning”… in short, you have experience making personal websites but no real world experience in software development. You probably can’t get through one of those interviews where they ask you real world questions… you know, stuff beyond your textbook.

        • Responding to “If you need to mention Office as one of your “skills”, then you probably don’t have much experience to show in real world programming. Currently you are “familiar”, “self studying”, “learning”… in short, you have experience making personal websites but no real world experience in software development. You probably can’t get through one of those interviews where they ask you real world questions… you know, stuff beyond your textbook”

          All good points. I am seeking junior-level and entry-level positions. Such a position ought to not require any experience whatsoever outside of school. Unfortunately, the automated job-matches at Dice and their competitors keep matching me up with level II, III, IV and senior-level positions “based on my resume” which clearly says “entry-level” and “junior”. I don’t rely exclusively on those automated matches, of course. As for mentioning “Microsoft Office”, I didn’t used to mention it, and the automated matching system that was being run in Colorado wasn’t getting me any matches with any jobs because Microsoft office was being listed as a required skill. You can be certain that web site work is way down on the list of the personal programming projects I’m working on. Most of the php and MySql work that I do relates to setting up such things as a web backend to handle customer registration, updates, and support of products that I’ve sold. I by no means think I’m some high-end genius programmer that thinks I’ve achieved something by having activating a WordPress install-script on some free, public web host. And it seems that most companies don’t even think me capable of evfen operating a computer, becuase I am not of the youngest generation currently running circles around adults.

      • Voted for Obama

        This will be a hard suggestion but since you mentioned Colorado, it crossed my mind. Location is also important. You have a better chance applying in cities with lots of corporate businesses as opposed to small towns. I don’t know how “businessy” your area is.

        >> And it seems that most companies don’t even think me capable of evfen operating a computer, becuase I am not of the youngest generation currently running circles around adults.<<

        Sorry that it is difficult with such bias and life seems against you. It is hard to get that first break. One suggestion I can give and that has helped me also is to have a portfolio to show potential employers – personal websites, blogs with your posts on stuff you've done on the side and stuff you learned. These should be highlighted in your resume. Resume should also be IT oriented. For eg, if you have a background in a totally unrelated industry like mechanic or something, that can be mentioned at the end of your resume as a small note and not initially since it is irrelavent to an IT Employer's work (atleast from their perspective) and it may end up being a turn off for them at worst.

        One of the constants in the IT industry is that skillset demands come and go every five years or so. Some stay strong for extended periods of time. It is very irritating and a big discouragement for a lot of people who choose IT as a career…that is why most of the people who make it through are those that enjoy programming and do it for "fun" in their free time. They get excited with new technologies and not scared by it. One example I can give you is that since you notice PHP/MySQL is not working for you, it maybe because it's not mainstream in the corporate area where as .Net is in big demand in corporate circles. The argument can be made that .Net demand may reduce in the coming years…. but currently it's hot and has been hot for many years at a stretch and many corporations have adopted Microsoft technologies so we can make an educated guess that .Net demand will be up for quite sometime.

        I don't actually look at such things because I enjoy anything programming. I have been living on .Net all along and do other stuff on the side at home during my free time. Today our company was talking about possible lay offs and voluntary termination… I'm not bothered. Free market works both ways… I'm going to polish up my resume and put myself in the market. I'm already getting emails and calls once in a while based on my old resume.

        Since you are looking for that first break, my suggestions are

        1. Highlight your skills and knowledge in your resume. Have an online profile ready – blog, personal website, participation in group discussion. You should be screaming as someone who lives and breaths technology.
        2. See what skills corporations are looking for. In my expierience – .Net and Java are mainstream. Java is harder to learn and .Net a lot easier as there are better resources for learnings for beginners (video tutorials, projects etc). Since you are starting, you still have a need to invest your time learning a demanding technology platform. I would suggest C#.Net + SQL Server
        3. If recruiters call you, then having a working relationship with them will help. They get paid for placing you. And they know where the openings are. If you seem like someone who is hirable, knowledgeble and "undervalued", they will prop you up.
        4. Location – you have a better chance in a business district with lot of corporatations and staffing firms that aid them as opposed to a location where there are less businesses that have IT departments. You can test this out yourself by seeing what happens when you update location preferences. Ofcourse, I understand moving is hard and is maybe out of the question. But if a decision has been made on a new career, I assume such factors were considered.

      • Samwise

        Great suggestions @VotedForObama –
        If you are looking to learn new technologies, I might suggest you getting into It’s not exactly programmer focussed, and there are a lot of job openings. You could also build a small Salesforce implementation for a small business (maybe even for free) in a month, and put it on your resume to start getting calls. Others which I’ve found interesting are android/IOS, some reporting framework like cognos.

        Also, I agree- looking in the right area is very important. Be prepared to leave your home city/state and jump off the cliff. I’m sure you’ll learn to fly.

        Just my two cents …..

      • @SteveTabler – I was just curious how your job search was going. I’m optimistic that you might have found something by following @VotedForObama & my suggestions. Please share.

    • I agree with what Discover Magazine wrote in an editorial a couple of months back: we don’t need more STEM graduates. We don’t need to “churn out” more students who have memorized a bunch of code libraries. What we need are more people who can THINK and PLAN and DESIGN and MAKE things. Churning out more STEM grads will not achieve this.

      I think that the biggest problem with universities is that, under pressure from employers who don’t want to train their own bloody workers, they are focusing more on “churning out” these glorified data entry clerks instead of doing what universities have historically done: producing well-rounded students who can think, plan, design and make things. Not just answer trivia questions about code libraries.

    • @ Dave- I agree with you 100%. I work in the engineering industry. Our team for example has 6 openings. As part of a team, we participate in going through resumes, interviewing people, and then decide as a team who to hire. First of all, 90% of the resumes we’re getting are foreign born. Many of them came graduated from a foreign university We get these resumes through our own company HR website and third party US recruiting agencies. Any US citizen or legal resident are welcome to apply. But only 10% of the resumes we get are from the US. The first part of our interview process we give each candidate is a pre-screen exam. Let me tell you, the 10% who graduated from the US, half cannot even pass this basic exam which covers logic, methodologies, programming skills, technical skills. Second of all, these aren’t lower paying jobs. . For software engineer positions, for example, the pay scale is about $95,000/year + a yearly bonus + benefits. With the yearly bonus, that comes out to be a six figure salary. From my first hand experience, I see for myself there is a shortage of “competent” US engineers. It’s just a lot of whining out there for people who don’t have the skills and it’s sickening.

    • soundcore2

      MUMBAI: Across the world, India is seen as an education powerhouse — based largely on the reputation of a few islands of academic excellence such as the IITs. But scratch the glossy surface of our education system and the picture turns seriously bleak.

      Fifteen-year-old Indians who were put, for the first time, on a global stage stood second to last, only beating Kyrgyzstan when tested on their reading, math and science abilities.

      India ranked second last among the 73 countries that participated in the Programme for International Student Assessment (PISA), conducted annually to evaluate education systems worldwide by the OECD (Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development) Secretariat. The survey is based on two-hour tests that half a million students are put through.

      • Bob Smith

        I’ve been told by several workers from India that if a potential employer asks if they know a certain programming language or process, to always say “Yes”, even if they do not know it. Then they spend the time between getting accepted and getting to the U.S. “cramming” whatever they can into their brain. If they’re lucky, no one notices for a few weeks until they’re up to speed. Then they bounce around for 10 years until they can apply for citizenship. Then it’s not a visa problem any longer.

      • ollieallears

        So they are able to learn quickly all the things one needs to know for a high tech job ? That sound like a plus to me !
        That they ‘bounce around’ for ten years and then apply for citizenship is a bunch of malarkey. People from India who come on a non-immigrant H1B visa often have to wait for ten years and longer to get a green card. This is caused by the quota system.
        For a green card the employer has to prove no UScitizen can be found who can do the job about half as good. (And the immigrant has to prove he or she paid Fed. and state taxes.)
        Only after five years of permanent residency can an immigrant apply for for citizenship.

  10. I noticed that you referred to Neil Ruiz as the lead author on immigration from the non-profit Brookings Institution.

    The Brookings Institution is one of the many organizations that call themselves “non-profit” or “think tanks” to promote the image of being objective, independent, and unbiased, when in fact they are funded by corporate interests. The Brookings Institute receives millions of dollars from Bill Gates, and Bill Gates has the nerve to call those contributions “philanthropy.”

    In return for Bill Gates so-called philanthropy, the Brookings Institute hired Neil Ruiz to concoct a study that reaches predetermined conclusions that benefit Bill Gates’ business interests at Microsoft. To top it off Neil Ruiz has ABSOLUTELY NO EXPERIENCE in technology. He just received his PHD from somewhere in a discipline unrelated to technology.

    So in return for Bill Gates philanthropy, Neil Ruiz publishes a concocted study with a predetermined conclusion and publishes that study with Brookings Institution letterhead. There is no research here. This is total public relations baloney!

    If you want research, I suggest that you refer to the 2011 study that the GAO prepared for Congress in which they discovered that these workers with H-1B visas are not only NOT highly skilled, 94% are not even “Fully Competent.” That GAO study found that a mere 6% of H-1B visa recipients are “Fully Competent” with 54% of the H-1B visa recipients being “Entry Level” workers. In fact, many disenfranchised US STEM workers were required to train their H-1B visa replacements in order to receive a severance package as their last job as a US STEM worker.

    • drgenenelson

      If you have doubts regarding the above claims that Microsoft is bankrolling the (previously neutral) Brookings institution to the tune of tens of millions of dollars to produce reports favorable to Microsoft, go directly to the source. Go to GatesFoundation dot org. Use the “Grants Awarded” tool and search for “Brookings Institution.” You will learn that the Gates Foundation has provided $22,669,464.00.since 2001 to Brookings. Recall the old adage that “Whoever pays the piper chooses the tune!”

  11. I am Tech Recruiter, most of the India H1B consulant and thier company r not responding for the mails , they have to change their atitude ( altease the H1B consltant can reply i got an other offer, i am not interested for this position,i am not comfotable for the requierment or what ever they can reply.
    These kind of H1B consulant r not fit for Holding H1B visa,

    The companys r use these H1B candidate r like a rent a car,and making 2 to 3 millions a year

    • Ryan, people work as per their priorities, and by now you should have known better that the kind of jobs you contact H1’s for may not be worth considering due to various factors. Consider other side of story You may actually be Spamming others! give it a thaught

    • It’s not about who has the skills , it’s all about the companies who became gready, they just want to pay less, that’s why they like and want H-1B. I have worked with many who came with H-1B, and their skills are not better than ours, we trained them to do the work , they gettin less money and guess what happened, we laid off.

  12. IT Worker

    Well I have worked in IT for over a decade now as a consultant/independent contractor, W2, 1099, and C2C and although my salary has increased it has only come from efforts alone. Moving up and down the East Coast, from state to state, as quickly and cheaply as possible.

    My concern is how some immigrants, both legal and illegal are creating a downward pressure on IT salaries. Some that come here legally, don’t leave and will take IT jobs at a reduced rate, since they are now here illegally and need to take what ever they can get.

    I also know that some of those working here from other counties, both legally and illegally that are lucky enough and land a 1099 or C2C contract, DON”T pay taxes which is ruining the contracting market for us in a number of ways. One, companies are now insisting on more W2 relationships, or very tight requirements as 1099 or C2C. I pay my taxes, always have and always will. What really irritates me is these illegals not only taking jobs from tax paying Americans, but also bragging about not paying the fair share of taxes.

    Since companies and agencies are now held liable and accountable by the IRS for any unpaid taxes by those contracting, they are less inclined to even have those types of business relationships with consultants and contractors.

  13. I think the failing of your company isn’t finding people who can do those jobs, it’s finding people willing to lie about how much experience they have in the completely unrealistic language listed as a requirement.

    I saw an HR Posting in 2010 looking for someone with 15+ years .NET experience. Since it went into beta in 2002, I find it hard to believe that position could ever be filled, except by the developer/inventor of the actual language/protocol, who likely won’t work for 50K per year.

    Anyone with a CS degree can learn other things. Hire someone with a CS degreee who’s willing to learn, and you’ll fill those positions in no time. You’re Welcome.

  14. Mitchell James

    When the mutiple engineering graduates that I know are finally able to get jobs then there might be a small shortage. Until then this is all about importing cheap labor at the expense of STEM graduates.

  15. drgenenelson

    Following the link provided via “BY LADAK” takes one to Systech Solutions, Inc. Checking with MyVisaJobs dot com reveals the following, “Systech Solutions, Inc has filed 304 labor condition applications for H1B visa and 36 labor certifications for green card since 2001” Thus, one of the likely requirements for working with this employer is to have a work visa. BTW, Systech International is another related company. Guess what they do.

    • Microsoft and Apple have filed thousands of H1Bs but no one would conclude “one of the likely requirements for working with this employer is to have a work visa”.

      That flawed logic would sink you at a job interview: among the mix of new hires, there will be some H1Bs, and the company above is no exception.

    • drgenenelson

      Hello, Rae: Having a work visa is a necessary, but not sufficient condition for obtaining a position with an employer that has a documented avidity for hiring work visa recipients such as Microsoft Corporation with a record 36,091 approved Labor Condition Applications between FY 2001-2012 . I did not make the assertion that you attempted to claim that I made.

      I have applied for direct hire positions at Microsoft many times since 1990 and have been rejected. BTW, I was a Microsoft contractor in 1995-1996. I am a native-born American citizen. Based on what I have read and reviewed, my result is a typical experience.

  16. This country is being gutted in lower and higher skilled positions. It makes me sick that this is happening. If these tech corporations cannot find the right skills, let them outsource. It’s not like they are not doing this already. Why saturate the market here with lower payed employees with high skill sets at the detriment of Americans. I used to work at HP, and I remember rooms full of H1-B’s being brought over as contracters. The fact this is still going on should be a major red flag for any American trying to secure positions in high tech to provide for their families.

    • Mr David,

      Its called as globilization and H1 who come and work in USA for 6 years pay all the due taxes as Americans do inspite of the fact that they dont get any previliges like unemployment check for 99 weeks to watch TV and many more government handouts as you know it.

      My advice is that you need to increase your skillset & bill your client as per market value for service you are going to provide. Sir! no more free cookies in the jar! Now you need to work for it.

      • Well, I recently finished my MBA, and will finish my MISM (Master in Information System Management) in 2 months. Is that enough skill sets for you? The problem is skillsets change so quickly it is virtually impossible to update without giving up your personal life, which most Americans are not going to do. H1-B’s paying taxes has so little significance in the grand scheme of things. If anything corporations need to pay their taxes and stop offshoring their profits. Its no wonder why this countries infrastructure is falling apart. And here’s a little secret for you globalization fans. Disparity of wealth will only increase in this country. Already there is a consensus that the middle class will be viewed through a worldly lens… which is unfortunate for Americans that want the middle class lifestyle.

      • Bob Smith

        IQ – You’re obviously biased in your opinion in the opposite direction to most Americans. By the “accent” of your writing, I’m guessing India. What would workers in India do if the government allowed millions and millions of Chinese workers to stream over the border to take jobs in India, simply because they have a specific skill set and work more cheaply than the average Indian workers? Wouldn’t you be upset? Wouldn’t you be screaming at your government to stop the influx of Chinese visa holders?

  17. funny thing is folks. you see the employers in this country dont give a damn so why would you waste your time trying to work for such people? dont. go do something else for yourself. this country is no longer your fathers country. it is some bastardized mutation.

  18. I’m an H1B worker, and let me say this- “The H1B program is completely flawed, and is detrimental to both the foreign workers as well as the american ones”. I think the root cause of all the issues is the fact that **it is extremely difficult for the H1B employee to change employers**. Sounds weird, right ? Here’s some facts – if an H1B worker needs to change employers, he/she needs to wait between 3-6 months before changing jobs, in addition to paying couple of thousand dollars to the USCIS as “processing fees”. Now there isn’t an employer in America who is going to wait 6 months before hiring a someone. Sure there’s a premium visa processing option, but that’s another $1500 extra !!

    So effectively, an H1B worker is basically bonded to the employer who brings him to the US- typically an outsourcing firm. And what happens when the employer decides to lay him off ? The government gives a 15 day period in which the worker needs to find a new employer who is ready to sponsor his visa, do the paperwork, wait the 3-6 months for visa processing to be done etc. Basically, the government says, “on an H1B, if you get laid off, find a job in 15 days or else go back to India, China, Phillipines or wherever you came from”. Show me one dude who can land a job in 15 days in today’s market.

    Now let’s extrapolate this situation – since the H1B employee knows that he is bonded to his employer, he is ready to work for whatever salary the employer pays. Hence the dip in salaries. The employer on the other hand can “market” this worker to big companies for half the rate charged by an American worker, and still make a profit. Damn right the H1B program is flawed.

    Now that doesn’t mean all H1s get paid lowly wages. I personally make more than my counterparts, and I know employees on a visa who make 200K(yes, that’s 200 thousand) a year. The only reason was that I and those others were able to get away from our expoitative companies (I started out as a .Net/Sql Server developer at 50K), and were able to land jobs that paid the market rate.

    Also, FYI, the total cost for a visa extension today is approx. $3500. For new visa sponsorships, the cost is a higher, I don’t have exact numbers. Per this article, there were about 269,000 visas processed in 2011. At $3500 per visa, that’s a billion dollars in fees right there !! Add to that the additional fees for L1 visas, green cards, family green cards etc., and the fact is clear that the government is earning billions of dollars every year just in fees !! Now why would the government ever want to change that ? Let the wages be depressed and the workers (both american and foreign) suffer, while the folks in Washington have fun.

    To fix the system, we need 3 things –
    A. Better checks on the skills that H1B workers are bringing in – maybe they need to pass a technical interview from government employed experts (who cannot be bribed in any way), before they are granted a visa.
    B. The H1B worker should be allowed to change jobs at will. Let him change jobs, let him run a startup if he wants to.
    C. A clearer path to a green card – there is a big trend right now where many on H1B are so frustrated with the system that they are returning to their home countries, taking along hundreds of thousands in savings as well as the technical skills they have acquired over the years.

    Let’s level the playing field for everyone – wages will automatically go up, the best will float to the top and the losers will stay at the bottom.

  19. All I know is I am beyond fed up with H1B employees. Sure they are supposedly intelligent hard working people in the IT industry. Key word there is supposedly. I work with MANY H1B workers. They mess up all the time, their communication skills are non-existent and they have ZERO project management experience.

  20. ollieallears

    The extra USCIS info added to Mrs. Hall’s piece gives the impression that 270,000 new H1B workers that were admitted to the US for the fiscal year 2011. But this is not so.

    The number of new H1B workers allowed in – for three years – was just over 100,000.
    (A total of 65,000 under the cap, 20,000 master graduates from US uni’s under a special rule, and about 20,000 cap-exempt workers.)
    The remaining 170,000 approved petitions are H1B workers that changed jobs – new petition required – or that got the one-time three year extension.
    So H1B workers are counted for a second, third, sometimes even a fourth time. That really pads their numbers.

    Mrs. Hall – and everybody else – also fails to mention the price that the spouses (read: wives) of H1B workers pay, as for them there is the notorious H4 visa.

    And funny that the vitriol is always poured on the temporaray H1B workers.
    Just over 550,000 workers are added to this country every year because a US citizen fell in love with a foreigner and married&imported him or her. And 50,000 workers are added yearly thanks to the so-called Diversity Lottery. These immigrants get green cards – permanent residency – right-away, can take any job they want and do not run the risk of having to leave.

    (The yearly number of work-related green cards is under 150,000 – in case you wonder – and the majority goes to temporary workers already in the US).

  21. True sayer

    It’s always entertaining to read as an “American worker” is complaining they have education, hard work and still no employment, and those on the H1Bs taking his/her job… Having a job is basic human right here in the US? No it’s absolutely not. Employers are capitalist, and employees are livestock for them, regardless of nationality. They don’t want H1B workers because they don’t want american workers. They want H1Bs because they need HIGHLY skilled labour for very high level jobs. H1Bs are not coming to retarded junior level entry jobs, they are highly talented workers. Someone said they had bad experience with them; bad communication issues, etc – you are the host, you have to handle a situation, you should know who do you hire before you start working with that person, regardless of nationality, again. I’ve been working with serious asshole americans, ass-kissing, morbidly obese white collar dilettant company slave-drones who are believing everyone should have a bible and a gun.

    When companies importing H1B workers they are basically bringing ‘on-site’ a foreign high skilled labour who can help them. This imported worker has far less rights like a local american has. If an ‘American Worker’ is still afraid of them, that’s retarded. An American Worker can choose any job freely any time. An H1B is basically linked to the employer who imported them. Many works is more efficient if all the employees can onsite and not remote (time differneces, etc).

    The quota is extremely low. Don’t afraid H1B workers. Afraid of your own stupidity and incompetence. If H1B would be banned tomorrow, many startups and tech companies in the US could SHUT DOWN and let even their american workers to go because no one could or would do the job in a cost effective way and/or quality.


    • You are vastly mis-representing the ability, skill set and attitude of most of the H1Bs I have worked with. I have to say that I have worked in Canada and the people who came in on the Canadian visas actually had better skills – if the US were to adopt similar screening we would all be better off.

    • You can’t say this free market capitalism. When the government artificially increases the supply (by issuing work visas) they are altering the market.
      Would you argue that taking land from a corporation or giving land is free market? Of course not.

      Also wages are NOT set by profit sharing. We don’t all share the wealth. Instead employers pay employees as little as possible. So when the government imports labor they are helping employers pay you less.

    • Please…As an African American, I must work with many different cultures as Corporate America is often devoid of other African Americans (like a spec of pepper in a sea of salt). I’ve worked with H-1B visa imports and they have “no idea” what they’re doing. As programmers, they may have a focused talent – outside of that…They can’t manage themselves out of a paper bag.

      They are no better than American workers – as a matter of fact, they know “nothing” about our culture, nothing about our infrastructure, and must be “trained” to be brought up to speed – especially in the world of High Finance. The companies who’ve outsourced more than 60% of their entire workforce are doing a grave dis-service to the very Americans who’ve been intimately involved in IT since its inception.

      It’s all about money – hiring a H1B visa person for ½ price – until they discover how much Americans are paid, and then – yes, they do take (and displace) an American job. And, NO, Americans “Do Not” have the luxury to take whatever job they see fit, as the saturation of IT immigrants outnumber us, as they kibitz among themselves, define processes “As they go along” and never, ever communicate the right information to the American worker to make us appear “out of it” when that’s their plan – to make us look incompetent in order to displace us!

      Since they talk “very fast” and in very technical (heavy) terms, most businesses “go along” with whatever they say – and when an American worker tries to point out that “they have their own agenda” they (American) is looked down upon as the one being “difficult”

      Those “higher-ups” need a wake-up call and should stop putting their trust in people that have their “own” agenda – Not the best interest of the company, nor the Team!

    • … First they aren’t highly skilled. There skills are questionable at best. I have worked in IT for over 25 years and have been working with these “job stealers” for the same amount of time. They lack the first requirement of being a good IT technician – troubleshooting. They typically are cowardly in there approach to handling unexpected issues that are a big part of IT work. They can follow a script like a parrot but if there is any deviation from that same script they simply stare at the screen like a deer in the headlights. …

      • Are you serious ? As you yourself said, you have worked in the IT industry for over 25 years …. why would you compete for jobs with H1Bs, who are usually in the 6-12 years job experience bracket. Isn’t it your responsiblity to transition into a “job-creator”, instead of working for someone ? I have seen people with 15 years experience having trouble comprehending the skills required today – the cloud, big data, RAD, mobile and so on. If you are expecting to be paid 250K for a job that earns the company 50K, well, that is not going to happen.

  22. I have been working in the IT world as an independent IT consultant since 1986 and in the last 20 years 90% of workers have foreign workers. A lot of these foreign worker become managers and they will ONLY hire workers from their country. The American workers are been pushed out of the IT world.

    • This is exactly what I see – as an American woman with a STEM degree and plenty of experience and ability, I am repeatedly passed over for assignments by my manager – a former H1B, who only seems to have time to talk to his compatriots and does everything he can to promote their interests. Those who have argued or don’t cooperate get replaced, the replacements are H1Bs and this is truly to the detriment of the company as the skill sets are NOT there, the purported experience is NOT there. I am generally ignored by most of them – and they will not accept my orders without argument, I suspect this is due to my gender. There are few female H1Bs and those that are brought in are assigned ‘helper’ roles – the ‘serious’ or ‘important’ work is reserved for the males – even if they can only perform their work with my assistance, the rewards and recognition are theirs – never mine. This is taking women in STEM back 50 years. The H1Bs have basically taken over and know the layoff lists in advance, take my work and present it as theirs and exclude the remaining Americans. However, at this point, they have been trying to have me take a more client-facing role – the idea being that the clients will more readily accept my face, based on having lost contracts by having the H1Bs represent things themselves. They’re trying to hide the fact that they and their compatriots will be what the client will have to work with…

  23. There is no shortage of skilled workers in the US. Yes, the technology focus is shifting and some higher level languages are becoming popular. It is more software than hardware nowadays. But companies are not happy with I took the class or learned the language on my own statement. They want working experience with a language that you had no reason to learn while you were busy with your daily work at your previous companies. The reality is that no one cares for the fate of IT workers in the US. …

    • Other than the insulting nature and wording of your comments, you are also ignoring the fact that companies bring in these H1B workers because the are CHEAP labor. And yes, you DO get what you pay for. We’ve all seen it. Companies do not want to spend the money to train the people that they already have. They also don’t want to pay us the money that they agreed to pay us anymore, so this is a great excuse for them to get rid of well paid employees.

  24. ollieallears

    Nobody paid any attention to my remark that some 600.000 new workers – and a good number of them IT/STEM workers – come in every year through marriage and DV-Lottery. And these are permanent residents from the day they arrive. So they can really compete for whatever job they want.
    No, the anger goes on, but only for the 65.000 ‘under the cap’ temporary workers that are yearly allowed in.
    Apparently everything in the US would be A-OK if this small number of immigrants were not admitted ?!

      • HRConsult

        Very BAD point!
        WE WELCOME those workers. They work for smaller business and contribute their fair share. H1-B is a tax subsidy for only – ONLY – the most wealthy companies.
        It creates a unfair bias for people born in specific countries who have powerful lobby support.
        Remove the Tax Subsidy for H1-B and see if any of your argument hold up!
        Were not the Wealthy suppose to “pay their share”?
        Why do people from one set of countries get preferred treatment over others?

      • ollieallears

        Maybe you can explain what that tax subsidy is for the H1B program ?
        Also I have never heard of countries lobbying for H1B visas ? Which are they are how do they do it ?
        And what countries do get preferred treatments when it comes to immigration ?

        If you have a point please make it, explain what you mean, give ## if possible, or an example, tell us where you found the info, etc. etc.

        Oh and you do not welcome foreign workers. E.g. you punish the spouses (read: wives) with H4 visas.

    • drgenenelson

      Again, as noted in my postings above, the annual numbers of H-1B Visas issued are currently in excess of 100,000. For several years, the numbers were considerably above that. The harmful effects on the careers of American citizen technical professionals are cumulative. The current number of cumulative H-1 Visa admissions between FY 1975-1990 and H-1B Visa admissions between FY 1991 and FY 2010, based on I-94 data were an estimated 6,540,370 admissions. For citations, see the table in the PDF version of my reference cited earlier whose title begins, “How Record Immigration Levels….”

      There is no proof of the postulated 600K new workers annually (“with a good number being IT/STEM workers”) obtaining work authorizations via marriage or the DV-lottery. The likelihood of the latter is low, given that only a high school education is required to qualify for a DV.

      Based on OLLIEALLEARS postings, I believe that he is currently a work visa beneficiary.

      • HRConsult

        Proof? Give us a break! Even the GAO admitted it has lost track. It is out of control.
        There is Proof that the H1-B is about Tax Subsidy and Proof that only the most wealthy companies are able to use (and lobby for) H1-B.
        “estimated”? There is no control – you are just justifying one set of standards for the wealthy and another set of standards on poor immigrants who are willing to compete fairly with the middle class.
        Immigration is healthy for the country, ,H1-B is an unfair tax issue.

      • ollieallears

        What do you mean there is no proof of 600,000 new workers annually admitted to the US through marriage and green card lottery ?
        These are ## you can find in the USCIS statistics about the green cards that were issued in one of the previous years (if I remember correctly, 2011).

    • ollieallears

      Again, the number of H1B workers appears much higher than it really is as a change of job, or a renewal, counts the same as a new approved petition. So the same person is counted two, three, sometimes even four times. Also I see not subtracted the yearly number of H1B workers that left after their times was ‘up’.
      So yes by doing the arithmetic wrong one can get a scary number.

      Why do you doubt my number of 550,000 visas through marriage and 50,000 through visa-lottery ? These numbers can be found on the USCIS site if you look at the numbers of green card (permanent residency permits) that were allocated in a recent year.
      The total number of newcomers was 1,1 million for that year if I remember correctly (175,000 refugees, about the same # for family reunion other than marriage USC, and yes under 150,000 for work related visa).
      So even if you deny all work-related immigration, you still end up with almost a million immigrants coming in in a year.

      • drgenenelson

        Labor market researchers Lowell and Salzman published a study confirming the gluts of U.S. science and engineering graduates in 2007. They estimated that there were 3 graduates for each opening in those fields. (Given the economic downturn since 2007, the numbers are even worse now.) Work visa programs like H-1B exacerbate these workforce gluts even further. Employers tend to prefer younger, more docile workers, such as H-1B work visa recipients because their short-term profit margins are enhanced. The H-1B work visa numbers are incredibly bloated. Based on USCIS statistics, 5,739,014 H-1B Visas were issued between 1990-2010. These numbers are way too high. This is an example of immigration policy serving greedy special interests, rather than the national interest.

      • ollieallears

        The number you give for H1B petitions, again, yes it is too high ! because it is the wrong number !
        Most workers are counted two, three, even four times in those statistics. H1B is a non-immigrant visa, when the permit is ‘up’ the person has to leave the US (unless he/she gets an extension).

        The number of H1B workers in any given year, the TOTAL # that is, in all of the USA that is, is under a million. Possibly lower than that.
        The # of permanent immigrants allowed in under the Diversity Lottery is after twenty years: one million !

      • drgenenelson

        OLLIEALLEARS: The number for the H-1B Visa admissions is from the INS and USCIS tabulations. Let us assume for the sake of discussion that a given immigrant is counted on average three times. (I believe this is a high estimate, given how the program is structured to focus on the developing world.) That still means about 2 million COMPETITORS for scarce jobs for American citizen technical professionals since 1990. As an experienced American citizen technical professional, this is clearly a bad thing, since the H-1B Visa program has evolved into a de-facto government-sanctioned foreign hiring preference program. I’m still trying to figure out why you appear to be such an apologist for this program – and attempt to discredit experts like myself that have studied such programs for over 3 decades. Have you testified against such harmful programs as H-1B in the U.S. House of Representatives? I have. Your response to me providing hard statistics is to try to deflect, rather than answer the objections I have raised. WHY? I note that your name currently appears 20 times in this discussion, so you clearly have a yet-undisclosed interest in the topic.

      • ollieallears

        What do you mean that the H1B program is structured to focus on the developing world ? This is another assumption, for which you do not, or cannot, quote the origin.

        And funny that if somebody questions your incorrect facts/numbers and tries to explain the rules of the program, he/she is accused of being in favor if it.
        FYI: I think it should be discontinued.
        But I also think that H1B workers who came to the US and followed the law in doing so, should not be insulted like some do here.

  25. Guys,

    It’s hard to understand that. I see tech job opportunities all over the world. And, in every place, the companies complain there are no people enough to fill these positions.

    I don’t live in U.S., but here where I live, I observe the following situation:
    – There are several tech opportunities that companies have difficult to fill
    – Recruiters are searching for people already employed, because they don’t find good people available in the market.
    – At the same time, I know some graduated and experienced people that complain about having difficult to getting a job. But I know these people, I already worked with them and I know they are not good. We don’t have too many immigrants over here to blame, but they blame companies for hiring less experienced guys in order to pay less. Companies do that, indeed. But really skilled people always have job opportunities. Only the weak guys are affected by that.
    – If it’s so hard to get a job, maybe it’s time to review your skills and improve them. And be a little more flexible as well.
    It’s really sad if a high-skilled person is really losing the opportunities for a foreign, this shouldn’t happen. But it’s hard to believe that high-skilled and flexible people are unemployed.
    And, come on, guys, the lower salary in U.S. is bigger than the best salaries over here, and the cost of live is lower in U.S… So, the salaries are not that bad. Don’t expect to get rich working for a company. If you want that, go and create your own company. A skilled engineer don’t need a company to created something, he/she only needs a brain, a hand and a computer. 😉
    Sorry, I don’t wanna to sound aggressive, it’s just my opinion. People is always blaming the government for their failures. Guess what, almost every government suck and do expect they do something to people is for communists. In the capitalist world you need to be able to compete by yourself.

    • Common Man

      Are you kidding? What country are you from? Mars!
      Cost of living is LOWER in US?
      Whoever wrote this comment has no actual knowledge of or realistic view of IT employment in the US in 2012.

      • I’m from Brazil. IT salaries varies from 24k to 120k a year and most people make less than 60k. As a Sr. Engineer, I make 65k, working for a global company. By cost of life, I meant the basics:
        – An average Apartment rental: 1000 to 2500/ month (that’s because I live in the south, where places are much cheaper than São Paulo and Rio de Janeiro).
        – Other Apt bills (water, taxes, power): ~300
        – Cable/Internet (10 Mb): 180,00
        – A popular car costs several times more than in US and Europe, the cheapest one is around 30k.
        – Electronics are also very expansive, a TV that is around U$ 200 in US, is 2000,00 over here. And so computers, tablets, cell phones…
        – Clothes are expansive as well. You pay 100,00 for something here that you would pay 20 in US.
        – University is so expansive as U.S. With the difference we have good public universities over here that are totally free.
        – Another funny thing is that travelling over here is often more expansive than go to Europe or US. Because the hotels and flights are very expansive.
        And so on…

    • Hi Nana. I wish there was a ‘”recommend” or “like” option for your post that I could hit about 1,000,000 times. While I don’t agree with you regarding unemployment problems–it’s more complicated than that, especially here in the U.S., where we’re in an economic Depression–as an anarchist, I nearly spat out my iced tea when I saw your comments about the folly of depending on the government to help you. I could not agree more.

      In fact, I think that could be the single biggest problem in America today. Too many unemployed and underemployed people are waiting for the government to “do something” about their situation. I saw en essay over on Yahoo by a guy who blames Obama for him being unemployed. My question is, did Obama make him QUIT A PERFECTLY GOOD JOB because he wasn’t “happy”? That’s how he became unemployed. He wasn’t laid off. He wasn’t downsized. He wasn’t replaced with an H-1B; he didn’t work in tech. HE VOLUNTARILY QUIT HIS JOB BECAUSE HE WASN’T “HAPPY,” and he sits around all day blaming Obama for his situation.

      Don’t take my word for it. You can go read his self-serving essay here:

      This is why, even though I have been severely underemployed since getting my Math/CIS degree, I don’t have much in common with other people in my situation. Many of them (not all, but a lot) sit around waiting for the government to help them. I, OTOH, don’t expect the same government THAT CAUSED THE DEPRESSION to fix it. That’s insane. I cannot even fathom why anyone could think that way.

      In your post, you said something that mirrors what a wise friend told me years ago: “The man you work for ain’t never gonna let you get rich off of his money.” Very few people become rich from working jobs. They get rich from their own efforts.

      I’ve tried a couple of entrepreneurial efforts, but they didn’t work out for me for various reasons. Right now, I’m at a crossroads where I honestly don’t know what my next move will be. But I know what I am NOT going to do: wait for the government to come “do something.” The government did NOTHING for the victims of Katrina. It did NOTHING for the victims of Sandy. I certainly don’t expect it do do a bloody thing for me.

      • Hi Trothaar, I couldn’t agree more with your words.
        Government assistance makes more sense in socialist countries, as some European places…
        Down here in Brazil, people is always blaming the government for everything, but I always thought it was a Brazilian thing, since in the past we had a “Paternalistic” government for a long time. However, it seems that’s common in other places when the economy is not going well.
        People is not wrong when complains about the government over here. We have one of the most corrupt governments of the world, we pay high taxes for nothing: we have no infrastructure, no investments in education (school teachers making less than 12k a year), very poor public services, 1/3 of population has no formal job, and we pay a lot for every single thing we need. And people is always trying to find a way of getting self advantage, even if it’s not very honest. Plus the violence, impoliteness (I don’t know if this word even exists :P), etc… However, at the same time, most people that blame the government for their problems are the same people who is too lazy to work harder or to study more. My opinion is that I cannot blame someone else if I’m not doing my best to solve the problem.
        Here, the salaries are lower than US in IT area, and “being happy” at work is almost a myth. Probably the situation is even worst in India or China.
        In summary, we live in hell (for Brasil it’s literal, because in the summer we have more than a hundred degrees – Fahrenheit). 😛
        So, when a foreign get an underpaid or high demanding job in U.S., he/she is still in heaven comparing to their home countries. So that’s why they offer more competitive options to employers. And you couldn’t be more right, all the companies want is taking advantage in every detail. Nevertheless, U.S. companies still seem to offer better conditions to employers than others.
        I’m not sure if it’s right, I think Americans should have the rights of choosing the conditions they want when applying for a job. In the other hand, this is a world-wide competition and maybe it’s important to be more flexible. Once you are in, you can prove your value. Maybe Americans are too distant of the rest of the World reality, with too high expectations. The world is growing populous, there’s no place for everyone, people needs to adapt. Well, I’m not there, I cannot say too much about the employment conditions over there. But what I have seen in the last months in U.S. IT area, sounds as very good conditions. At least comparing with IT area over here. Not mentioning Europe, where the salaries are even lower. But this is another story, they have almost everything for free from their governments.
        I always thought the immigration issues were regarding illegal people. Those people who do not integrate to the society, forming ghettos and bringing violence. And these communities grow fast, as they have too many kids. Similar problem in Europe, with political refugees and such. My opinion was that if you create a great place to live, only the qualified ones should be able to get in. Because nobody choose born in a bad place. But that ones who study and work hard to have a better life and to contribute to the society should have a chance to move to a better place. So, if a person lives in an advantaged area, he/she should be prepared to compete with that people who grew up fighting for their life (it sounds dramatic, I know…).
        I’m not saying it’s right. But it is a reality.

    • ollieallears

      Please do not bad-mouth the people living in the US on-documented but hard at work in the fields, in the orchards, on the dairy farms, in the slaughterhouses. Without them we probably would not eat as well as we do, here.
      It is the government who is unable to figure out a ‘working’ system of work permits for these immigrants.
      It is the employers who hire them – although often they have no choice. Crops need to be planted and harvested, fruits needs to be sprayed and picked, cows need to be fed and milked. And as long as we eat meat, animals have to be killed and cut up.

      • drgenenelson

        While your comments regarding illegal immigration are not totally germane to a debate regarding H-1B, they are also factually incorrect. You may be surprised to learn that a majority of people working in those fields are U.S. citizens. The nonpartisan Center for Immigration Studies published the study. On a related note, however, the H-1B Visa program is a conduit for illegal immigration as a large number of workers, even in IT fields, overstay their H-1B Visa and become illegals. Search for this February 18, 2008 story:
        “Illegal emigres defy the image – FASTEST GROWING SOURCE? IT’S INDIA”
        By Mike Swift, San Jose (CA) Mercury News

      • Thats another example of the type of misinformation that is being spread about the H1B program. First of all, there are hardly any h1bs overstaying in the us. They are bounded to their employers. More importantly they are skilled workers who can secure a decent salary in any other country, including their home countries. So there is absolutely no incentive to staying in the US illegally….. in fact it’s a big pain. And, there are only 64000 h1b visas issued every year….. how on earth do the few illegals within that 64K compare to the 20 million illegals in this country ? Please think before believing any article on the internet.

      • And I forgot to mention…. out of the 64000, 20K of H1B visas are reserved for PhDs and Masters degree workers, who graduate from US universities. So essentially, there are only 40K visas available for companies to bring in workers, and those are being used by companies **in all sectors, not just IT**. And, this 40K visas are reserved for all countries total, not only India or China. I don’t see how any illegal immigration is possible with such small numbers, just doesn’t make sense.

      • drgenenelson

        The poster SAMWISE is the one that is spreading misinformation. The annual number of H-1B Visa admissions that is cited by this person (64,000) is far too low. The problem of visa overstays is large and growing. Many H-1B Visa holders do not want to return to the developing-world nation they came from.

        U.S. government studies have documented visa overstay problem since the early 1990s. The thing that is significant about the 2008 Mike Swift newspaper article (NOT internet article) is that the San Jose Mercury is an unabashed advocate for increasing the H-1B Visa program, based on their numerous editorials regarding that topic.

      • drgenenelson

        SAMWISE’s following post is also factually incorrect. The annual number of new “capped” annual H1-B Visas is 85,000, with 20,000 reserved for Masters or Ph.D.s granted from U.S. colleges and universities to J-1 Visa holders. In addition, there are in excess of 20,000 more new “uncapped” H-1B Visa admissions for colleges, universities, and nonprofits each year. The effect of these admissions is cumulative. Millions of H-1B visa holders have been admitted to the U.S. since the H1-B Visa was created in 1990, with millions more via the predecessor H-1 Visa program. The numbers are so bloated as to cause significant downward pressure on inflation – adjusted wages in science and engineering fields.

      • Sure, I agree the number is 85000, with 20000 reserved for masters and phd students. But my argument still stands…. someone on h1b earning 90K(or even 70k) does not have any incentive to live here illegally on a 30k salary. And if we are talking about cumulative numbers, how about comparing the growth in h1b visa with the growth in the tech sector in the last decade? And the green card lottery has been bringing in 50000 immigrants without any skills since 1995, while every year half a million people get green cards bcos they married an american citizen. I’m not saying the h1b visa is perfect, but it’s just not right to single it out as the reason for all the problems in the tech sector.

      • drgenenelson

        Thanks, SAMWISE. However, there are *many* H-1Bs earning far less than 90K or 70K. (The median is less than $60,000) I have seen approved LCAs for around Ten dollars per hour. Those poorly-paid visa holders may be much more likely to overstay their visas.

        The cumulative numbers of admissions in these work visa programs continue to be the problem for American workers. Once an American has had their job cut because they were replaced by an H-1B Visa worker, they tend to be “marked” and have a progressively harder and harder time remaining employed in technology fields.

      • ollieallears

        You proof is ONE story that appeared almost FIVE years ago ? Please !

        Furthermore: this country has millions of H1B workers ? About two million petitions have been granted since the program began, indeed. But an H1B visa is ‘up’ after six years – altough since 2000 some extensions can be granted if one is in the last phase of a Green card procedure. So these workers either became pemanent residents after their H1B period, or they had to leave the country.
        Most employers demand a completed I-9 from their employees to prove they are legally in this country and are allowed to work.

        I Googled your accusations but so far have not found any stories or studies that support them.

        That the # of H1B visa allotted under the cap is 65,000 is a fact.
        And yes another 20,000 additional ones are given out since a few years for foreigner who acquired a M.S. at a US university.
        Another almost 25,000 H1B visa are issued outside of the cap for universities and research institutes.

        And thanks to people like DrGeneNelson who give out negative and often incorrect information, the spouses (read: wives) of the H1B workers continue to get the H4 visa.

      • ollieallears

        You state that you ‘have seen LCA’s approved for jobs that paid $ 10 an hour’.
        If you have an accusation like that you should give the year, the job for which the petition was meant, the employer who was able to hire this worker etc. etc.
        (And yes abuse happens. USCIS gives lists of employers who have abused and are therefore no longer eligible to hire H1B workers.)

        For H1B overstay you should also be able to give the correct USCIS info and where to check it. This is a serious issue and should not be debated on hearsay.
        Also for totals of H1B workers you should give real numbers, and not some vague suggestion.

      • drgenenelson

        Hello “OLLIEALLEARS”: I’m unimpressed with your attempts to discredit what I have summarized. Your approach seems to be to give me a series of tasks, as if that will satisfy you if I do all of those things. Given the bias towards increasing immigration that is apparent in your postings, I seriously doubt that me providing “n” articles on the topic will be sufficient for you. I just conducted a Google query on both terms “H1-B Visa” and “overstay” and observed there are approximately 38,500 results. Searching for the term “overstay” at the U.S. department of Justice website yields 212 results.18 results are returned for “H-1B Visa” overstay . “H-1B Visa” overstay yields 10 results. Six results are returned for “H-1B Visa” overstay
        These search results make it clear that Mike Swift’s newspaper article is not an outlier.

      • drgenenelson

        Here is an example of the low pay offered H-1B Visa holders. This particular set of H-1Bs were recruited from the Phillippines by a dishonest firm called Universal Placement. The employer was the Recovery School District, 1641 Poland Avenue, New Orleans, LA 70117. The visas were for issued with a start dates between 8/1/2007 and 8/15/2007. 26 separate Labor Condition Applications (LCAs) were prepared. The specialized job title was “Special Education Teacher.” The pay rate was $17.74 per hour, which annualizes to $36,900.

      • drgenenelson

        During FY 1998 – FY 1999, the number of “capped” H-1B Visa admissions was 115,000.
        During FY 2000- FY 2003, the number of “capped” H-1B Visa admissions was 195,000.
        During several fiscal years, the number of “capped” H-1B Visa admissions exceeded the statutory limits as the count of visas issued was incorrect.
        Note that in all years, the number of “uncapped” H-1B Visa admissions has been unlimited.

        Again, the career interests of American citizen technical professionals have been harmed by millions of H-1B Visa admissions. Based on the postings, I seriously doubt that “OLLIEALLEARS” is currently in this category.

      • ollieallears

        DrGeneNelson, I was talking about real results, numbers from USCIS etc.
        One can get almost 50,000 hits by typing in the Google Window two terms/words,but that says nothing.
        E.g. in this case, most of the Q.’s are from people in overstay in a different visa who wonder whether H1B is still possible for them.
        And yes some are H1B’s that are in overstay and have Q.’s about leaving – and for a long time not being allowed to return. So it is not that one can really make a career out of it.

        For a few years, because of the Y2K scare, the cap for H1B was indeed lifted to higher numbers. But that was about ten years ago. All those benificiaries are now either permanent resident, or have left the country. And a few maybe are still in the the quagmire of a green card procedure.

        I do appreciate the extra efforts you did because of my reactions !
        Re. the example you give, abuse of the H1B program is bad, a serious issue and should be reported. But this is an exeption, not the rule.

        The number of 600,000 new workers every year comes from USCIS information. But if you think it is no problem when a manufacturing worker, or a store clerk, or a taxi driver, loses a job or gets lower wage, then OK.
        I understand now that you only get upset when a tech worker might lose his/her job or sees wages not going up.
        Glad we cleared that up !

        You are wrong about how you categorize me – if you had read really careful you would have come to a different conclusion…. Try again….

      • ollieallears

        What you all miss, is that H1B workers will apply for green cards and many will get them (many will not get them and they have to leave) and that after some years these permanent residents can become citizens. So keeping the H1B program as it was intended with only workers that benefit the US economy etc., is in the interest of the H1B workers/permanent residents themselves too.

        Some people here paint the H1B worker as some kind of enonomic enemy. That is a waste of energy. Call or write your congressman or senator if you know the program to be abused. Contact the Department of Labor (or whatever it is called) in your state. Ask for stricter regulation and proper enforcement of it.

        But first look at real numbers. Do H1B workers take jobs from US residents/citizens ? Or do they save/create jobs ? (Some studies indicate five jobs saved/created per H1B worker. See National Foundation for American Policy.) And their education did not cost the US taxpayer a dime.

        But do the US still get the best and the brightest ? Maybe they stay home now, or maybe go to other countries. Most well-educated/talented men/women have a spouse with the same. And that spouse (read: wife) gets an H4 in case of H1B for the hired worker. So the really good ones, they do not choose the US anymore.

      • drgenenelson

        The poster OLLIEALLEARS claims to not be a work visa beneficiary. Based on his use and knowledge of some of the arcana regarding a program that tends to be poorly publicized, I wonder if he is an immigration attorney. (Immigration attorneys have been strong advocates for increasing the H-1B Visa cap because there are high profit margins associated it and the corresponding permanent labor certification program.) To view a sample of how dishonest immigration attorneys are, go to YouTube dot com and use both terms “Cohen” and “Immigration.” Watch the video that has been viewed more than 430,000 times since it was posted on Jun 16, 2007. Note this video was made with representative footage from a collection of YouTube videos initially posted by Cohen & Grigsby to help increase their business.

        Immigration attorneys from Cohen & Grigsby explains how they assist employers in running classified ads with the goal of NOT finding any qualified applicants, and the steps they go through to disqualify even the most qualified Americans in order to secure green cards for H-1b workers

        • Dr., this is kind of guilt by association, isn’t it? It doesn’t really matter how someone comes to believe something on one side of this debate or the other, whether they’re an immigration attorney, an American worker who feels he/she has been displaced, etc.

          (By the way, I don’t mean to pick on you with what I’m saying here, but I’ve had this thought several times as I’ve read through the comments and you happen to have been the lucky person who posted something for me to jump in on. So no offense meant in any of this.)

          Anyway, I don’t know anything about the firm you’re talking about, so I can’t speak about them, but I had a relative with a green card (he hadn’t come here on any kind of work visa, btw.) who had trouble when it was discovered that his documents had been “secured” by someone who turned out to be a fraud. By getting it resolved the attorney he hired made it possible for him to stay in the country with his wife.

          I say that just to point out that there are always lousy people around to take advantage, but we shouldn’t allow them to color the debate. The same holds true for guest workers themselves — too often they’re attacked when all they did was take advantage of a government program that’s been offered to them. A couple of people on this thread have pointed out that the way to address any unhappiness with guest worker programs is to pressure our elected officials to change the laws. Those folks are exactly right.


      • ollieallears

        I am not an attorney, but thank you for the nice compliment about my knowlegde.
        The video on YouTube was not about H1B visa, it was info about the procedure for green card, which is permanent residency. What the lawyer cited was a rule that USCIS has.
        And how often a video is viewed says nothing, the numbers for the animal porno on YouTube are much higher.

        But this is my problem with the way many anti-immigration pundits contribute to the discussion. They cite old new, take things out of context. They add incorrect numbers of newcomers and never subtract those who are counted several times and/or have left the country.
        Then based on incorrect information they become angry !

        E.g. the remark about Googling H1B and overstay and the # of hits. Well I Googled ‘dairy’ and ‘fairy’ yesterday and got a almost five million hits ! But that does not mean there is a real ‘dairy fairy’.

        You keep suggesting this country is too liberal in immigration. But it is just the opposite: this country is very restrictive when it comes to labor related immigration. Only 1 in 10 immigrants is allowed in on a labor petition. The other million yearly immigrants comes on a different visa – mostly marriage or family reunion.
        You continue not to address this issue.

        The suggestion is given here that immigrants favor low educated, inexperienced, non-creative etc. newcomers who can barely communicate. Why would they ?
        As I already wrote immigrants have just as much to win and to lose from immigration as the next American. We all need a good immigration system and correct enforcement of the rules.

        E.g. do USers really think it is a good idea that some immigrants can ‘buy’ a green card for themselves and their direct family – basically for $ 125,000 a person ? Your government recently got the idea and most politicians and some businessmen are very enthousiastic about it.

        So yes let us discuss immigration. But based on the real and on ALL the numbers. And based on facts and not on vague or trumped-up accusations.

      • drgenenelson

        Mark Feffer: I appreciate your overall neutral tone in response to my comment that you singled out.

        You suggest that people should contact their elected representatives regarding the harms of this program. I have spent considerable time doing just that. I have walked the halls of the U.S. Congress and provided testimony to policy bodies such as the House of Representatives and the National Academy of Sciences numerous times regarding the harms of this issue since 1996. However, the pro-H-1B Visa side has the means to make their voices heard much more clearly. They lavish our elected officials with “campaign finance contributions” (er, bribes) by the millions of dollars annually. One of the most infamous campaigns was bankrolled by Microsoft Corporation and its proxies for about $100 million between 1995-2000. Microsoft hired one of the most corrupt lobbyists, Jack A. Abramoff and his team starting in December, 1994.

        The result: Employer interests such as Microsoft obtained 3 “Microsoft-friendly” changes to H-1B Visa law during the same period. One of the original members of “Team Abramoff,” Michael Smith currently serves as a lobbyist at the VP level for Cornerstone Government Affairs. I believe he is in charge of the Microsoft account. Michael continues to lobby for the H-1B Visa program. In my 2007 article, “The Greedy Gates Immigration Gambit” I argue that Microsoft’s conduct should be sanctioned for violating the broadly-written RICO statutes. I also filed a 110-page legal filing on 3 September 2008 in the case USA v Abramoff that became Exhibit 40 in the case. Copies are available via PACER or via This filing provides considerable documentation of unethical conduct on behalf of employer interests.

        My summary is that “the soft rustle of lobbying dollars” trumps reasoned arguments regarding H-1B Visa policy.

        So the question is, how to “level the playing field” when there is such an non-symetrical balance of power, with employer interests tending to prevail because they wield such economic power?

        • Dr., thanks for your note. I think the guest worker issue is a big one, but as I mentioned I worry that the real debate gets lost in the emotions. I wish more people would take your approach of getting involved. Historically, getting issues addressed through popular action takes longer than it should — the civil rights movement is one example — but I’ve always believed that it can be done if enough people channel their passion toward actual change, as opposed to venting alone. And, call me naive, I believe that even we mere citizens can stand up to lobbying dollars when we get motivated enough.

          Anyway, I want to make the same offer to you that I made to folks on another thread: If you’d like, post two or three questions you’d like to ask employers, managers or officials about H-1Bs. We’ll try to get some responses. If you’d like to be interviewed to provide counterpoints, send me an email and we’ll set something up. Or, if you want to write a guest post about all this, let me know about that, too. (All of this applies to anyone else reading this, too.) I think the tech professional’s points of view often gets lost, and this is meant to be a blog for tech professionals, after all.

          Thanks again,


      • ollieallears

        I have no interest in this. I am just a stubborn person. And I continue to be amazed that the hatred against H1B workers here is thus, that most posters are unwilling to figure out the correct numbers. An H1B visum is for three years and after another three years, the worker has to leave te country. None of you has tried to find the number of workers that went back to their country of origin. Because whatever you say, H1B is non-immigrant eand by itself does not give the right to stay permanently.

        None of you has responded to my remarks about the green cards for sale for 125,000 a piece nowadays. None of you has commented on the 50,000 green cards that are raffled each year. None of you has made a remark about the total number of permanent immigrants that come in every year, between 1,1 and 1,4 million. Many of those immigrants are tech workers. Those workers are far more serious competition than the temporary H1B workers.

        None of you has written about the L1 visa, often used instead of H1B, and those petitions are often pre-cooked, blankets they are called, appoved beforehand.

        So yes that to me is amazing that people who say they are tech workers are so focused on one detail that they have completely no interest in the bigger picture.
        All I did was try to correct the numbers that some used here. Interestingly there was hardly a proper reaction to that, only personal meant remarks about my possible status, whether I need to apply for citizenship or whether I might be an attorney (no, no and no).

        The US immigration regulation is extremely limiting when it comes to work related immigration. The focus for the US is family reunion.
        Based on the many cries from unemployed here, that policy has not worked. Many co. does not have the enigineers with masters degrees that they need to keep and/or create lower level jobs.
        So that leads to an interesting Q.: what if the US immigration policies had been geared more towards bringing in (and keeping in) the worlds best and brightest ? Would we have more jobs and job openings then ?
        (No I do not know but neither do you !)

        (And, again, abuse of any immigration rule should be reported and remedied).

      • In all of my 26 years of it experience, I’ve never had what happened to me 3 years ago. I was looking for a Oracle Developer, and we got literally hundreds of resumes. We narrowed it down to about 4 people. I won’t elaborate on the four, but the person we hired had a great interview. They answered every question without fail. When the person started, it became obvious that the interviewer and the person that showed up was not the same person. I further confirmed that this practice is not uncommon, but me, I just couldn’t believe someone would do such a thing.

      • —–that to me is amazing that people who say they are tech workers are so focused on one detail that they have completely no interest in the bigger picture.——

        I’ve said the same thing in other posts. Tech does not exist in the bubble. The problems in the tech field are part of larger problems within the U.S. economy as a whole. For example, entry-level jobs have vanished across all industries, not just tech.

        ——what if the US immigration policies had been geared more towards bringing in (and keeping in) the worlds best and brightest ? Would we have more jobs and job openings then ?———-

        We might, for the reason I stated in a reply to Samwise: immigrants as a group are more likely to start their own businesses than Americans. Lots of these businesses might be one-man shops, but lots of others would have a need to hire others.

  26. Flat World

    Pateintly reading most of the comments, reminds me a story. Once two birds found a piece of bread. They had their own resons to claim it was theirs. Then a cat walked by and said “I’ll resolve your problem by cutting the bread in half so that you both share and not fight.” After the cat cut the bread, they saw that one half is bigger than the other, the cat said ” Let me take a piece from the bigger half so that you dont have to fight and get an equal share”. After eating up a chunk from the bigger half, this piece now seemed smaller than the other one. The cat once again said, “Let me eat another chunk from the now bigger piece so you get an equal share”. This continued till the cat ate the whole bread.

    Stop fighting within yourselves guys ( both H1-B and Citizens). realize that this is a capitalistic, corporate counrty where companies focus only on bottom lines. The CEO’s and investors are eating up your share coz that’s fair in a corporate world.

    To the H1B guys: Just because you saw a couple of lazy American asses doesn’t mean they are all lazy and want more for less work. In fact, they’ve invented all the technologies and started all the companies you are working for. And you do know not all H1-B guys are smart, talented and so on. There are a loads of people who only have codes memorized and got through interviews and behave pretty rude. I wouldn’t comment on communication skills coz most H1-Bs are from non-english countries anyway.

    To all Native Americans ( That came out wrong, I meant American Citizens): H1-Bs are not here to steal your jobs. they are not a frickin terrorist organization for christ sake, they are here coz American companies invited them. It’s just a growth in career from their point of view. If a plane load of Indians came here to replace your jobs, that’s coz your fellow American CEO decided to do so. (Bottom line matters). For an H1-B guy, his boss asked him to go and work somewhere which promises him a promotion or something. it’s not like he is getting loads of money either. Both the American and Indian company executives are reaping the benefits here. It’s not like American companies don’t occupy Indian econimies, Walmart is killing hundred’s of local mom and pop stores there. Globalization America started it.

    As far as the Foriegn students who did their master’s here, they go through same trouble as well because of the loops holes in H1-B congress wouldn’t fix. They might be smart enough to start a company of their own and provide employment but they can barely change their job. So they end up working for a low wage and ZERO growth till their prime age is done and their by creating lower wage Jobs for the American citizens. Go pressure the congress to fix this broken system where nobody is benefiting except the lobyists and executives.

    And if you hate Foriegn workers, start up a company of your own and hire American citizens only. But you’ll have to sell your “Made in America” product as 4 times the price than your competetion. As a customer for this company, I’ll probably have to pay $5 for every customer service call.

    Blamming each other will only create frustration and hatred. H1-B guys, you might want to say this country was discovered by a Hispanic guy looking for India but it’s these guys that built the country which you want to come to now.
    Citizens of this nation, realize that Rome was not built in a day. This country is still being built and we still have immigrants even thoug hit’s been 400 since you started migrating.

    • You missed the culprits that are most to blame: Congress.

      If you look at the H1-B legislation, it provides for a reasonable 65,000 visas, good for 3 years. The intent is to address SHORT TERM shortages in skilled positions. Instead, the quota is overloaded, some years approaching 300,000 visas (5 times what’s allowed by law). And since the visas are routinely renewed for an additional 3 they are, in reality, 6-year visas. After 6 years, the workers who arrive under this TEMPORARY, NON-IMMIGRANT visa program can apply for citizenship and continue to work for up to two years, even if they are ultimately NOT approved.

      That’s 8 years to life for a visa that was supposed to last just 3 years.

      In addition, the H1-B legislation mandates that employers pay equivalent salaries to H1-B visa holders, something that we all know does NOT happen.

      Finally, the H1-B visas are intended to be used ONLY when a suitable American worker CANNOT BE FOUND. I know from PERSONAL experience that some firms actively work to fulfill the letter of the law while trying to avoid hiring an America ( Also, you can see that companies PAY for legal firms to come in and coach them on how to avoid hiring Americans. see at the 1:45 mark. (This is for green cards, but the same is true of H1-Bs.)

      CEOs, congressional “representatives”, senators and HR personnel should all he headed to jail for their complicity in this sell-out of the American worker.

      • ollieallears

        The number of H1B visas is capped at 65,000 – with since a few years 20,000 extra voor MS degrees at US uni’s. Plus each year there are a number of con-capped petitions granted (also around 20,000). There is no year that 300,000 H1B petitions lead to this number of H1B workers. The rule is: once the 65,000 is reached, it is over for that year.
        So please do not post nonense that routinely 300,000 H1B petitions are granted in a year.

        Furthermore, after the 6 years H1B is ‘up’, extensions are (now, this was different in the past) possible, if the GreenCard procedure is in a certain phase. This way an H1B worker can indeed be for some ten years on this type of visa. Especially if he or she is from India, as for Indians there are quota to the number of permanent immigrants that are allowed in each year.

        An H1B workers can NOT apply for citizenship. One can only apply for citizenship after five years as a PERMANENT RESIDENT. And H1B visa is a non-resident visa. (Sorry for the capitals but some people apparently need them….)

        For an H1B petition the employer has to prove that this worker is ‘the right man/woman for the job”.
        The rule that the employer first has to search for a US worker is in place when applying for a Green Card for a worker.

        And, again, no comment on the 500,000 worker that come in through marriage each year, and no comment on the 50,000 Diversity Lottery Winners. Only the H1B workers are blamed for all the misery that begot the US worker. Like a broken record.

      • ollieallears

        Two things: # of immigrants through marriage 550,000, not 500,000 (for the year I quoted).
        And: when in the past the cap for H1B workers was lifted for a few years, it could have been possible that the total for capped and non-capped admitted workers reached one time almost 300,000. But that was once, and over ten years ago.

    • Samwise

      @Flat World – very nicely summarized, I appreciate you taking the time and reading the entire thread. During the current presidential campaign, I read somewhere that “you can never win a negative campaign”. The same applies to life – nobody ever became successful blaming others. You need to take a balanced approach, and do what is best for you and everyone else around you.

      As far as your argument that not all Americans are stupid, I hear that sometimes from other immigrants, and this is what I tell them – “this country produced some of the greatest entrepreneurs ever- Carnegie, Rockefeller, Ford, Disney, Bill Gates, JP Morgan …. the list goes on. To categorize them as stupid is making a fool of yourself”.

      And yes, if only H1Bs could get the same work rights as american citizens (freedom to switch jobs, freedom to start companies), many of the current problems would be automatically fixed. If only someone in Senate/Congress etc. would listen.

  27. @Samwise,

    Not everyone has the luxury to become the “job creator”. For example, if you have a family to support, you need to earn money. There are plenty of people who have lost jobs due to immigration because they were forced to train their replacements, not because they were no longer able to do the work at the companies they worked at.

    • @GregBo – My reference was to @RM, someone who claimed to have 25 years of experience in IT – you know where this thought stems from ? I’m on H1B myself, and I am itching to start a company. Guess what, I can’t, because the H1B program does not allow me to start a company without losing my visa status. I would like to work for a specific company that I don’t want to name, but guess what, I can’t, because (a) the H1B program makes it extremely difficult to change jobs, and (b) my dream company has placed restrictions on hiring H1Bs because of all the negativity that you can read all over this thread, and (c) if my dream company lays me off, I will need to find a job in 15 days or else go back to my native country.

      So what does today’s H1B worker do ? – wait for his green card, basically by staying with the company that brought him to the US for 6 or 8 or 10 years. That is the story today – not long before people start getting frustrated and start packing their bags. And then what ? companies would start finding highly skilled, US-trained workers in China, India, Phillipines etc., and could then even outsource business critical job functions.

      There’s no magic bullet to fix this, but the least that can be done is to allow H1B workers to switch jobs, start companies, and basically work for whoever they want to. That would level the playing field, and companies would never be able to exploit and underpay them the way they do today.

  28. Clearly the major corporations are using H1-b and other visa programs to drive down wages. The proof is the market itself. Were skills in short supply, offered salaries would be rising, and the fact is that they aren’t. In many cases they are falling. To claim that they have to be paid comparable to an American is to ignore the impact that they have on American pay.

    These visa programs need to be ended. Period.

    • @Michael- H1Bs are blamed for driving down salaries so many times that one would start believing it even though your own salary rises. True, H1Bs many times get paid less, but that is because of the fact that the program is designed to bind them to their employers (read my post below).

      As for your contention that wages are not rising, I quickly did a google fact check and found this on itself ( — according to this, wages have in fact risen from 2011 to 2012. I think you need to be in the right sector in IT – big data, cloud computing, data warehousing, mobile etc. If you are in one of the so-called sunset fields in IT, sure your job would be sent offshore someday.

  29. Jimmy Lozano

    Everybody HERE in this Article comments…
    Can explain me VERY WELL and in a few statements (if possible)
    WHY Microsoft NEED desperately H1B visas to hire workers outside from U.S.A…. and
    WHY Microsoft CAN NOT (or WANT NOT) hire USA Resident who live in U.S.A. to develop the same jobs that H1B workers are supposed have done…???
    And please… but please… AVOID to said that the USA Resident CAN NOT learn WHATEVER they need to learn to develop an specific job, and don’t said please that the jobs from Microsoft need a college or graduations degrees for 2 or more years, BECAUSE WHATEVER SPECIFIC JOB IN WHATEVER AREA CAN BE LEARNED IN LESS THAN 3 MONTHS OF “TRAINING”
    (All depends the capacity of the person to learn very well this training in less of 3 months)

    • Many of us with a little more “experience” have already gone thru some pretty major technology shifts. I, for example, started as a mainframe COBOL programmer and since then have worked with VM, Essbase, Oracle, SQL Server, etc. We’ve changed from mainframe to client-server to web based. Don’t tell me that the American IT worker can’t learn new technologies. We just need the opportunity. It is management that only looks at the short term bottom line that keeps us from these jobs.

    • @Jimmy Lozano…My perception is that Microsoft (for example) wants to hire workers for the lowest possible wage they can possibly get away with, say at or even below minimum wage. Microsoft “thinks” that the American worker will refuse to do the work at minimum wage, given the history of IT being a high-wage field. Therefore, Microsoft sees a foreign pool of H1B workers as a rich pool of workers that can be used and won’t realize, being new to living in the USA, of how seriously underpaid they are at their shiny new job at Microsoft. In the meantime, Microsoft only “pretends” to consider current Americans for employment, but in reality just discards all American applications, no matter how low they are willing to work for, thus we are relagated to such government programs as SNAP, where you have to spend 30 hours a week scrubbing the bathroom floor in the Goodwill store as “job training” in order to “earn” your food alotment for the month (I’ve literally been there, but that is another story).

      • Jimmy Lozano

        Totally true your comments… no doubt, because I’m in the same “steps” like you or maybe worst, like Unemployment person of USA.
        But… Really I don’t Understand IF THIS IS TRUE that Microsoft want hire people outside from USA because “SUPPOSEDLY” they pay less than the minimum wage (let’s take example of CA $10.00 minimum wage), Do you believe that Microsoft will pay $1.00 at hour (10%) at H1B worker…??? I DON’T BELIEVE under any circumstance… so, let’s take that Microsoft will pay $5.00 p/h (50%) at H1B worker, so the other $5.00 is for what…??? to avoid pay TAXES, INSURANCE, Social Security or another BENEFITS that BELONG to USA RESIDENTS…??? for what, to maintain the profits for the CEO’s or the stockholders of the companies…???
        Why Microsoft or another companies (said Apple, Dell, etc…) who take all jobs overseas wants HURT the USA Resident with this policy to maintain H1B visas instead of the benefits and welfare of the Family of the USA Citizen and Resident of this GREAT COUNTRY UNITED STATE OF AMERICA.
        WHY ???

        • Why? Because Wall Street is so focused on short term (quarterly) profits, that companies will do almost anything to grow from quarter to quarter. It doesn’t matter that they are hurting themselves and everyone else in the long run (how can an economy grow when so many of it’s citizens are out of work?). Wall Street rewards short term results, not long term.

    • What does the H1B program provide ? It provides an avenue for skilled individuals all over the world, who have undergraduate/postgraduate/PHD degrees in STEM fields, to come to the US and contribute to it’s companies, and contribute to it’s economy. It is a path to bring in skilled workers from all over the world ….. and the program is not just limited to IT, it is open for all fields.

      That is the simple reason why the H1B program is required – it is a path into the USA for skilled workers – and a path that immigrants all over the world have been taking. Any other country would be desperate to have the kind of skilled immigrants coming into their economies – in the US, because of visa misuse by certain individuals and companies, the entire program is being blamed.

      @JimmyLozano – The above is in answer to your question – why do we need the H1B program. Also, let me ask you this — if you are the owner of a software company and need to fill a position, who would you prefer – someone who has the required skills and can be productive from day one, OR, someone who you can train in 3 months ?? I’m sure most companies prefer someone who already has the required skills – which is another reason they need H1B workers to come in and start working from day one.

      P.S. – I’m on H1B myself, and I agree there are other flaws with the system – read my post below before jumping to negative conclusions about what I said.

      • Jimmy Lozano

        Before to answer VERY WELL your comment about my question I have a few doubts…
        —-“”It provides an avenue for skilled individuals all over the world, who have undergraduate/postgraduate/PHD degrees in STEM fields, to come to the US and contribute to it’s companies, and contribute to it’s economy.””—-
        So… for you, any American Citizen/Resident who lives in USA has NOT this kind of title…???
        —-“”Any other country would be desperate to have the kind of skilled immigrants coming into their economies – in the US,””—-
        I’m sorry Samwise… this statement is TOTALLY UNTRUE because ALL the countries in the world wants to come to USA to get the skilled and PRODUCTS created and refined in this Land.

        —-“”@JimmyLozano – The above is in answer to your question – why do we need the H1B program.””—-
        MMMMM sorry samwise your answer is not according to the question I asked, I did an specific answer: WHY the big companies are “DESPERATELY right now”, asking for H1B visas, and your answer is a simple reason why this kind of visas was created in the past.
        —-“” Also, let me ask you this — if you are the owner of a software company and need to fill a position, who would you prefer – someone who has the required skills and can be productive from day one, OR, someone who you can train in 3 months ?? “”—-
        NICE question… of course and 100% I will take any USA Citizen/Resident who lives in USA to get this job and paid for the training of the 3 months… because eventually this is going to be more beneficial to the USA and the benefits and welfare of the USA Families too; Instead of my profits and money of any CEO or stockholder.
        —-“” I’m sure most companies prefer someone who already has the required skills – which is another reason they need H1B workers to come in and start working from day one.””—-
        Of course the companies prefer this kind of people to paid less money and get more profits for them and only for them… also, please… are you sure the H1B workers start to work immediately when they arrived to USA…???

      • Samwise

        @JimmyLozano – clearly you’ve drawn your conclusion that H1Bs are bad. Let’s say, for argument’s sake, that the H1B program is scrapped. What about the half a million GREEN CARDs that are granted every year to people from other countries who marry an american citizen ? Should those be barred as well ? What about the 50,000 GREEN CARDs that are awarded for free, via the diversity lottery ? What about the people who come here for studying and end up staying ? What about the people crossing the borders and coming here illegally ?

        Go to the US State department page –

        According to the US state department, 6.4 million total visas were granted in 2010. Out of those, the number of NEW H1B visas is capped at 64000 (the number says 147K, since that includes transfers etc.). So we are talking about 64000 H1B visas awarded every year, with a validity period of 3 years !!! And you are saying the H1B visa is to blame for all of the tech industry’s woes. Sorry, but I’m tired of being blamed for the tech sector’s problems while all that I did was to use YOUR OWN government’s program to come here and live the American dream.

      • ollieallears

        If you think the education and expertise that the average H1B worker has can be acquired in three months, you are mistaken. Maybe this is the root of the problem, many apparently underestimate the knowledge and creativity needed to build succesful products that can be sold in the US and in the rest of the world.

        You seem to think that if no work permits were issued, all the high tech jobs in the US would be yours. But are you sure your level of education is high enough and is a fit for what is really needed ? (Also are you not a semi conductor engineer who complains through his wife – to the prez of the US no less – but cannot/will not move outside northern Texas ?)

        I cannot speak for all H1B workers, I am sure abuse of the program exists, but without H1B worker knowledge there would probably be less jobs for Americans.

        DrGeneNelson is gone ? I saw that he has been griping about the H1B program already since it started. And still he cannot get the ## right, nor the argument.

      • drgenenelson

        Despite ollieallears repeated attempts to discredit my research, he persists in failing to address the fundamental point that increased foreign competition where the foreign competition is ADVANTAGED in the eyes of the employer because 1. The work visa effectively indentures the foreign worker – and 2. The employer-designed loopholes legally allow the employer to underpay the work visa recipient

        is inherently UNFAIR to American citizen technical professionals.

        To see documented employer avidity for such work visas, the U.S. State Department provides an informative FY 2011 tabulation of so-called non-immigrant visas here:

        The “O1” Visa for truly outstanding visa recipients does not have the two onerous provisions referred to earlier. There were only 8,828 O1 Visas issued in FY 2011. Compare that with 129,031 H-1B Visas issued in FY 2011. Clearly, employers preferred low-cost indentured H-1B Visa recipients to truly outstanding immigrants by a 14.6 to 1 ratio. In my view, this is another reason why such corrupt work visa programs should be immediately terminated.

      • ConfusedCountry


        I am just curios. How would you feel about changing the H1-B rules so that if a foreign worker is brought in he must be paid MORE than the typical US pay scale not prevailing wage? The idea is that if the H1-B is more qualified than what could be found here, he should be paid more? If he is not, then why is he being brought here?

        As a second change to the H1-B rules, another change would be to eliminate the “indentured servant” clause so that any H1-B holder, who is brought here because of his advanced skills knowledge, can quit and work for the highest bidder at any time.

        As an H1-B holder yourself, would you support these two changes? If so or not so, why? Could these two changes to the H1-B program be agreeable to people on both sides of the debate?

        I’d like to here from Americans on this point as well. I feel this would solve all the problems. Americans would NEVER train their replacement because the person being brought in is REALLY being paid more so they can never be considered “cheap labor” replacement workers. Companies would have a true incentive to bring in only the “best and the brightest”, and it would also be fair to the H1-B holder. If he is so much better than anyway that can be found here, why shouldn’t he/she be paid fairly for his worth, and why should a company be entitled to force him to become an indentured servant.

        A system such as this (I believe) would fix the problem and be fair to all sides.

        Please weigh in. If Americans and H1-B alike can agree on this, maybe we should lobby congress. Maybe we can finally get a movement going that both sides can agree on.

        @SAMWISE – Your opinion please.

      • Samwise

        @ConfusedCountry –
        As I was reading your post, I was thinking of my own H1B process – two H1B transfers, one extension, two green card processes etc. I have been fortunate to have been closely able to follow the details of my visa process, which are usually fairly opaque to many.

        One of the things that I found was, as part of the H1B visa process, you need to submit a wage determination form, where you compare the wages you are offering the foreign person with the wages being offered for similar jobs in the area. If you are offering lower or almost the same wage as that being offered for similar job descriptions, the application is rejected and no visa is granted. So, there are provisions in the system that ensure that you don’t bring in H1Bs at 50K and put them in 100K jobs. As proof of that, my pay comes out to be among the top 5% in the NYC area for my job description- I checked after reading your post. So, the whole notion of H1Bs being lowly paid workers replacing americans is not true (abuse happens here as well, like qualifying a datawarehouse programmer as a system analyst and underpaying, but the USCIS is clamping down heavily on that). When someone else replaces you at your job, it is easy to think that they are replacing you just because they are charging less, but that is not true all the time.

        Second, I am all for levelling the playing field for everyone. It does not make absolutely any sense to tie H1Bs to their sponsoring companies. What is even more bizarre is that if you lose your job, you have 15 days to find a new job, otherwise you are considered out of status/illegal. This is ridiculous in today’s market, and untold numbers of H1Bs have had to leave the US during the recession of 2008-9 (nobody counts that when they over-state the H1B numbers). On top of that, H1Bs cannot start companies. What??!! After working in top tier companies for years, having gained world-class experience, when an H1B individual wants to be an entrepreneur, he can’t. I know the frustration of that feeling first-hand, since I have wanted to start a company since some time now, but because of the visa provisions, I can’t. If this were removed, a bunch of startups would spring up. You know what’s the ideal company for many on H1B ? One that sponsors their visa without any issues, that can give them months of notice before a lay off so they can find another employer, that will process their green card asap, and one that does not exploit them too much because of the so-called “indentured” clause. Is the company good for career-growth ? Who cares- growth will come after green card (read, after the dude turns 40).

        It just makes me sick to think of what this program does to many – young people in their 20s coming to the US, who end up spending 10 years or more just waiting for their green card.

        Before my reply turns into a rant, here’s what I think needs to be done –
        1. Remove the “stay-with-a-company” requirement for H1Bs, and make it super easy to switch jobs
        2. Allow them to start-up companies
        3. A clean path to the green card- the current wait time for India is about 10 years, china 7-8 years, so you basically are spending the most productive part of your life waiting in line.

        Lastly, I wanted to mention something to you that I am seeing – the US is no longer the ideal destination for many. I have friends back home who couldn’t care less if they never visited the US. Why? because the earnings back home are rising fast, and allowing them to have an awesome lifestyle, without dealing with H1B, green card etc. Also, I have friends in the US who are returning to their native countries since they are fed up with the system (a colleague resigned today, as if on cue). Point is, the program rules suck, and the frustration exists on both sides.

      • drgenenelson

        @ SAMWISE The best rebuttal regarding your claims of the U.S. workforce protections in the Green Card process is a five minute YouTube video posted in 2007. This video is readily located via a search for both phrases “Cohen” and “Immigration” or use this link: You will learn that just like the H-1B Visa prevailing wage rules, employers have developed a large number of loopholes for the Green Card process, making a mockery of any U.S. workforce protections.

        The best summary comes from immigration attorney Joel Stewart, who posted an article titled, “Legal Rejection of U.S. Workers” at ILW on 24 April 2000. In his conclusion, he said, “but even in a depressed economy, Employers who favor aliens have an arsenal of legal means to reject all U.S. workers who apply.”

      • ConfusedCountry


        Much of what you are saying is true and I see it. But the prevailing wage requirement as mentioned by “drgenenelson” is also true. Just checkout what is happening at IBM:

        John Miano has been an advocate at the Center for Immigration Studies and has been working on the “cause” for a long time.

        What do you think about having a “greater than prevailing wage” requirement? Why wouldn’t that work. Companies that cheat will still be stuck paying prevailing wage, and the rest will pay more, and if no qualified American can be found, then paying more is fair to the Americans, it is fair to the Foreigner, and it forces companies to pay for what they get and completely rids the system of abuse.

        What are your thoughts on that ?

      • Samwise

        @DrGeneNelson –
        You are showing a video 5 years old, and the article you referred to is 12 years old. The world has changed quite a bit within that time, and so has immigration and USCIS. Why don’t you have a video showing how USCIS has been rejecting visa applications ? Why don’t have a video detailing the H1B visa rejections at US consulates in India ? While we are posting random content from the internet, how about this link that says that visa rejections at US consulates in India has gone up 8-fold over the past couple years and is at record levels. Please, don’t post links to your biased videos/blog posts. The supposed green card “abuse” in your video is actually following the word of the law(maybe not the spirit), and is being done by American attorneys working for american companies. If the law was not being followed, how come USCIS/congress etc. has not changed it after innumerable investigations into visa fraud ? Fact is, 95% of the visa cases today are within the purview of the law. Closing down the program is not justified for the 5% cases where abuse happens.

        The link that you posted cites one case from IBM, and in my many years in the US, this is the first time I have seen anything like this. Surely, this is an exception and not the norm, and should be rightly criticized.

        About the greater than prevailing wage, I don’t understand why you think the requirement is any different right now. The current requirement is- the foreign employee should be paid greater than the prevailing wage for the job he is being offered. I don’t know what more you think should be added to this. I feel that the H1B law already requires what you are asking for.

        • ConfusedCountry


          Actually the rules are “prevailing wage”. I was more thinking something like “Prevailing Wage +25%”. Although the exact percent is debatable, here is my thoughts. If a company has an open position and they can’t find an American and they have to hire overseas and that person is found, it would seem that that person must be a lot better than what they found here. Face it, there are legal documents to file, government fees, and sometimes travel expenses. Is not this person than worth at least 25% more? If he is not, why are they doing it, and shouldn’t that person deserve at least 25% more.

          I know if I was so highly skilled that some foreign country wanted me and told me they couldn’t find ANYBODY in their country with my skills, I’d probably ask for DOUBLE. Isn’t at least a 25% premium the MINIMUM you should ask for if you know that nobody in that country can match your skills that they have to bring you in from overseas?

          If they told you “we will only pay you prevailing wage” would you believe them when they told you there was nobody else in the country with your skills?

          Your thoughts please.

      • Samwise

        @ConfusedCountry –
        I was actually going to propose something similar but then didn’t. Yes, a 25% hike may serve to slightly impact the number of new H1Bs granted. I say “slightly” because many people come here for masters etc., who anyway get offered significantly higher wages than the prevailing wage for freshers. Also, when companies are bringing in people to work at companies like Microsoft, Apple etc., they would still pay the higher rate and bring them. I checked on the labor websites, and the prevailing wage is not that high a number for my area- most big companies can afford paying 25% on top of that to an H1B.

        Also, your solution does not address the thousands who are already in the US and working at companies. Whatever threshold you pick (25%, 50%, whatever), companies will just pay the threshold and still keep them. Why ? Because companies know that these dudes are going to stay with them for whatever time it takes to process their green cards (current time for India- 10 years, China- 7-8 years). So if you have a guaranteed employee who’s gonna do whatever you tell him to do for the next 10 years, and one who is always going to charge 25% on top of the prevailing wage, and you could skip giving him salary increments every year or two, tell me why companies wouldn’t mind paying the higher wage.

        I’m kind of beating a dead horse here, but I think the only lasting solution is to allow them to change jobs, start companies etc. Leave no difference between the H1B worker & the american worker, and you wouldn’t even need a prevailing wage+25% requirement.

        • ConfusedCountry


          Actually we are getting very close to agreement. Where do we sign 🙂

          I think the prevailing wage + 25% to bring them over, and give them the right to change jobs. For people already here they would immediately have to pay a 25% increase, and if the company didn’t think they were worth it, then obviously they are not above average anyway and probably shouldn’t be here.

          Once they get the raise, it will be up to the visa holder to decide to accept the offer or leave. If he decides to leave, he will accept any rate he chooses. I’ve taken pay cuts for a job I like better, so might he.

          …and yes, in an economy that needs growth, why not allow them to start companies. Until you told me, I never knew that that was yet another restriction, but it seems like that restriction is just another “indentured servant” clause. You can’t quit, you can’t start your own company, its all designed to benefit the company. Those rules don’t protect the visa holder, and they only cause animosity with Americans.

          If the market were more of a free market, nobody could argue that Visa’s are being used to drive down wages. We would all benefit. As long as these indentured servant clauses exist the problems will remain.

          In hind site, it is really not an American vs H1-B conflict, it is a problem of Americans competing with Indentured servants problem.

          Lincoln said it best when he said we can not have a country where half are free and half are slaves. Although to a lessor extent, this is the same problem.

          I am all for immigration reform, and big, big, on my list is getting rid of indentured servant clauses where all people can compete on equal footing.

          The question is, will congress act, or do corporations like having absolute control, and a strong lobby? If visa holders were more free to quit, balance would be restored, hostility would end, and true capitalism would be restored.

          …but we may have to change the world some other day 🙂

      • Jimmy Lozano

        One Simple Answer
        If you don’t like this answer… please tell me WHAT would be the different opinion that you have…

      • Samwise

        Yes, I think that is a good solution that will benefit everyone, except for the companies who are exploiting individuals to get their job done. I have seen it myself – a lot of outsourcing companies prefer the L1 visa to the H1B visa. The reason- someone on H1B can still change employers, whereas the L1 is granted per company, so if the individual leaves the company, he’s out of status.

        If a company knows that when they bring an individual to the US @ 50K, the individual will leave them the next day for a job that is paying 90K etc., they would think a 100 times before bringing the person here. Similarly, if someone is dissatisfied with the way his/her company is functioning (read, giving them crappy stuff to do without any growth), they will leave the company asap and find a new one.

        As you said though, we will have to change the world some other day. I wish someone would start a petition to congress with this, I’d be the first to vote on it.

        • ConfusedCountry


          Maybe DICE can help us with this and get something going. Maybe a few articles on proposed solutions and the community can vote, and this could become the DICE recommendation to Congress. The articles can be geared toward really finding solutions (and no bitching which I have been guilty of myself). Who better to solve this problem than THIS community right here.

          Why should we wait for the clueless congress (both sides) to solve this problem. This is our industry, we should fix it. Let’s get a movement going.

          If DICE is agreeable, maybe we can have a list of recommendations with all people (American and Visa) weighing in on the subject. Perfect the proposal, we vote (only our vote should count), and make it OUR proposal to congress. I’d rather us do it than the Chamber of Congress.

          @Mark Feffer & Susan Hall

          Would you be up to taking this on?

          • ConfusedCountry


            I’m excited. This is something we really need. I think you would be a great person to keep us focused on the task at hand and make sure we don’t wander off topic. With such a large community of people who really know the issues, you can help lead the way for us to solve this issue once and for all. A recommendation to congress that is agreed upon by both American Citizens and Visa holders alike would be a force to be reckoned with by the Obama administration.

  30. Jimmy Lozano

    BY SAMWISE | JANUARY 1, 2013
    @JimmyLozano – clearly you’ve drawn your conclusion that H1Bs are bad. Let’s say, for argument’s sake, that the H1B program is scrapped. What about the half a million GREEN CARDs that are granted every year to people from other countries who marry an american citizen ? Should those be barred as well ? What about the 50,000 GREEN CARDs that are awarded for free, via the diversity lottery ? What about the people who come here for studying and end up staying ? What about the people crossing the borders and coming here illegally ?
    According to the US state department, 6.4 million total visas were granted in 2010. Out of those, the number of NEW H1B visas is capped at 64000 (the number says 147K, since that includes transfers etc.). So we are talking about 64000 H1B visas awarded every year, with a validity period of 3 years !!! And you are saying the H1B visa is to blame for all of the tech industry’s woes. Sorry, but I’m tired of being blamed for the tech sector’s problems while all that I did was to use YOUR OWN government’s program to come here and live the American dream.

    One Simple Answer
    If you don’t like this answer… please tell me WHAT would be the different opinion that you have…

    • Jimmy: I agree with your suggestion. I think that people should just be allowed to immigrate here or not, period. If you are allowed to immigrate here, you should have the same rights and responsibilities as everyone else.

      I think it’s ridiculous to have all these different types of visas. The H-1B offends me because it’s a form of forced indentured servitude. While people should be able to voluntarily choose to be indentured if that’s what they want, nobody should be *forced* to be indentured to an employer under threat of deportation. This should be a matter of private contract law. This solution would truly level the playing field, as both Americans and the foreign-born would be free to enter into indenture contracts if they chose to do so. *Everyone* would be following the same set of rules.

      Of course, I’m different from nearly all posters here because (1) I’m an anarchist and will ALWAYS side with the solution that involves less government (preferring, of course, NO GOVERNMENT AT ALL) and (2) I don’t blame all of the tech industry’s woes on H-1B’s or immigration. To point the finger at H-1B’s and ignore all of the issues affecting the larger economy is oversimplifying the issue, to say the least. The tech industry does not exist in a bubble.

    • Samwise

      @Jimmy & @Trothar – If the playing field were to be levelled, the wages would automatically adjust. H1Bs would be able to leave the employers who underpay them, would not be threatened with deportation if they lose their jobs, and would be able to start companies and contribute to the country’s economy.

      Companies like Microsoft, Cisco etc. would have no benefit to hiring an H1B worker vis-a-vis an American worker, because they would both be charging the same amount of money, and could both switch jobs when they got a better job offer.

      You know what else would happen ? – there are hundreds of thousands of H1Bs who have been waiting 6-10 years to get their green cards (since 2002). These H1Bs have hundreds of thousands of dollars in savings, since they have been always in the “Save today, spend later” mode because of the uncertaintly around the H1B program. If they were to get green cards today, I can guarantee that each one of them will buy a house. The real estate market, especially on the east coast & the west coast, would boom. The automobile market would boom (I personally want to buy a Lexus, but wouldn’t want to spend the money if I don’t know if I’m going to be staying in this country or not). There would be new companies that would start coming up.

      Unfortunately, all of this is mere hot air for now — there is nothing going on right now in the Senate etc. to fix the program, and even if there were, the government is going to make it even more restrictive because of all the negativity around the program. Guess I will have to put off buying my house and car for upto 2020, or maybe I will be forced to buy it in my native country instead.

      • Samwise — I hadn’t thought of the entrepreneurial aspect; I was focusing on the ability to change jobs. That’s an additional benefit I hadn’t considered. Given the opportunity to hang their own shingles, lots of H-1B’s may choose not to ‘”take” a job from anyone; they would start businesses and create jobs for other people. Immigrants as a group gravitate toward entrepreneurship more than Americans.

        Although I must advise anyone against buying a home in many areas of the U.S. today, especially in California. It’s still wildly overpriced. My husband and I may move back there this year, and we’re probably going to rent because of this. See for more. And a new car is a colossal waste of money because it plummets in value the moment you drive it off the lot; I prefer to buy nice, low-mileage used vehicles. But I digress. =)

      • ollieallears

        I do not think most H1B workers have 100’s of 1000’s of $$ in savings. A move to the US is not cheap, one needs a car, a place to live, etc.
        Many H1B workers live and work in CA, where the living is not cheap. And those who have a family, still must make do with only one income.
        I agree with the remark that many H1B workers, coming from non-US cultures, tend to be more frugal and more prone to saving than many USers.

    • ConfusedCountry

      Actually I agree. The problem is the H1-B and the servant class it creates. It drives the industry into a downward spiral. If companies had to pay a high fee to hire a foreigner and had to pay the foreign worker MORE than an American and the worker were given a green card relatively quickly, the industry would start fixing itself.

      Why? Because if a foreign worker TRULY is higher skilled than anyone they can find here, shouldn’t he be paid MORE? If the whole issue was truly based on skill, the market would clean itself up. Companies would hire Americans and if the skill isn’t available, they would pay more for a foreigner.
      ….but if the foreigner really WASN’T higher skilled than the American, no company would bring them over.

      …and getting rid of the H1-B Servant visa would level the playing field. All of sudden we WOULD get the best and the brightest from around the world, and everyone would benefit.

      If companies all of sudden had to pay a premium for all the H1-B they currently had, or be forced to swap them for some other H1-B, most people would be swapped. No company would pay an extra fee for the “talent” they have. Most would opt for the “cheaper” swap. Does that sound like companies are really hiring the “best and the brightest”.

      I am all for faster green cards, ending the Servant Visa, and requiring foreigners be paid more.

      …but even if that were done today, nothing will fix the problems the industry has now. We do have a skills shortage, and many of the Baby boomers who developed most of the tools and technology that we all use today are going to leave. Many have been driven out and replaced and there is nobody left to mentor the new generation (American or Foreign). If not for the financial collapse that delayed many retirements, the problem would have been even worse, but it will get worse. We have a serious problem on the horizon.

      Have you read about how the number of open source contributors are declining? Why do you think that is? Skills shortage in the area where we really need skill. Soon, as an industry all of us “user programmers” are going to be using tools, open source and technology, that nobody will have to skills to extend.

      No fix to the visa program now will fix the damage that’s already been done. We now have a whole generation of programmers (10 year generation) who mostly knows how to “use” technology that somebody else wrote, but couldn’t write it themselves.

      Can you write your Web Server?

      • Discover Magazine published an editorial within the last couple of months that maintained we do not need more “STEM graduates”: we need more scientists who can think, create, innovate and make things.

        I agree with them. When employers screech about wanting “skilled workers,” what they really mean is that they want glorified data entry clerks who have memorized a bunch of code libraries, the way we all memorized our times tables as children. We had no idea WHY 6*7 = 42. We just memorized it so that we could spit it out on quizzes.

        Memorizing times tables does not make you a mathematician. Memorizing code libraries does not make you a developer.

        We need true skill. We need innovators, thinkers and creators, not data entry clerks.

      • ConfusedCountry


        I completely agree. Our industry has become full of “memorizers” and not programmers. A programmer is somebody who can think and write something from scratch, not somebody who can fill their resume with a bunch of buzzwords.

        Programming is a creative skill and that concept has been lost as we have been replaced by glorified data entry clerks who can do AJAX for dummies.

        In the 90’s if we were told we had to put a website up but we were not allowed to use Open Source, the programmers would just give you a blank look, say “What is Open Source” and then they would write everything from scratch and get the job done.

        Today, if you took the average team (in fact most teams) and said “I need you to build a Web Site but you are not allowed to use any Open Source”, the team would just give you a blank look and say “How the hell can I do this if you don’t provide me with something I can use!”.

        Our industry is in a sorry state of affairs where so many programmers have been replaced by “memorizers” who really can’t program. …

        At this point I am OK with what is going on. I see companies really needing to get real programmers because the old libraries and frameworks are not what the computer industry will need for the future. Most of what we are using is slowing becoming obsolete and more and more convoluted and there is nobody left who knows how to reinvent the wheel.

        The Corporations saved money in the past 10 years, but they are going to pay dearly during the next. If you want to see where the industry is headed, just look at the total lack of innovation that has come from India in the past 10 years. Nothing.

        The companies like Apple that didn’t outsource are going to clean up. They still have the people they need to invent, the Microsoft’s of the world will crush under their own weight.

        Look how pathetic Adobe has become. How about HP? or EDS. What about IBM. They now have more employees in India than they do in the USA. –and speaking of IBM, when was the last time they invented anything new besides cool demos that amount to nothing useful.

        Lately IBM has been specializing in getting sued for outsourcing and failing to deliver? Is there anything else they are known for today?

        This may sound terrible, but if you look at all the companies that are in decline, they are also the companies that have outsourced the most, and hired the most “Replacement Workers”.

        In a way, it is capitalism at its finest. The poorly run companies who hire the most low skilled no matter how cheap, will still crush under their own weight.

        It is happening now. It’s an interesting show to watch. A big part of the skills shortage is that there are very few managers who would even have the skill to hire the right person even if the perfect person’s resume landed on their desk.

        They would still pick the cheapest person, or the person with the most memorized buzzwords on his resume even if it is all crap.

        Mark my words. There is no fixing this problem and it will only get worse.

        • Couldn’t agree more. Thanks for an excellent analysis. Try going on a job interview with years of experience and not use a lot of buzzwords. You’ll be told that you are “light” on programming skills or at best, an admin. Some of us never got hung up on buzzwords. We were too busy getting things done and doing some heavy duty programming in whatever environment was needed.

  31. Look at you guys – you have so much of hate against H1-B workers. India did not outsource your jobs to China, your own CEOs did. Your own stupid NY Times writers call it “World is flat”.

    Reality is, India is a developing/underdeveloped country. There is no question about it. Question is – If the labor coming out of India is so bad, why are your getting them here to begin with. You might say, they can hardly speak English. You already mentioned that they are terrible as far as tech skill are concerned, still they are replacing you. I do not understand it. If you are being replaced by them and company is still running then I guess you were overpaid all along. You replaced your cable company for 10 dollars a month saving, your employer sacked you for 10,000 per year saving. How difficult is it for you to understand?

    No log ago, finding a job in America used to be going across the street. It has changed a bit lately.

    Yes, I came to the US as H1-B worker. I have never been paid less than my American counterpart and right now I am in top 1% earners in this country. I pay taxes and I love this country. I think the only way we can retain high paying jobs in this country is – by sending out kids to colleges and equip them with right tools. That is what Indian parents are doing and they are eyeing your job and my job.

    • ConfusedCountry

      There is one important point that you are missing. The skills shortage. Before all the H1-B’s and the outsourcing (70’s, 80’s, and 90’s), we had a programmer shortage not a skills shortage. Today we now have more programmers than ever before, but now we have a skills shortage. Do the math!

      The ONLY way that could happen is if we have been replacing high skilled workers with lower skilled replacements. I have been a programmer for 35 years. I have lived through many, many programmer shortages, but I had never heard of a “skills” shortage before now where we have plenty of programmers and none with skills that are good enough.

      The fact is for 10 years many VERY qualified Americans were replaced by people (mostly from India) with lower skills. The result is today we have a skills shortage. No surprise.

      The problem is many of the low skilled workers don’t even know they are low skilled. Weren’t you the one bragging about your AJAX skills? I hate to tell you, but I consider AJAX a low skill.

      Have you worked on any languages, compilers, databases, servers, or operating systems? Have you designed any libraries or frameworks? Gluing together the work of other (smarter) programmers to do an AJAX call to a server that somebody wrote for you, in a browser that somebody wrote for you, using languages that somebody wrote for you, embedded in a framework that somebody wrote for you is what is called LOW-SKILLED worker.

      This is part of the problem, you do not even have the enough skill, to realize you are in fact a low-skilled worker.

    • I maintain that this poster cannot possibly be for real. His claim that he’s one of the “1%” is pretty much proof of it. In order to be in the top 1% of wage earners in this country, you have to earn at least $450,000.00/year. If I earned that much money, I’d be relaxing on my yacht, enjoying my home in the Hamptons and otherwise having the time of my life…not posting on or any other Internet site.

      I doubt the average one-percenter has ever even HEARD of Those people have much better things to do with their time.

      • Additionally, if I were a foreign national and earned that much money, NO WAY would I stay in the United States. I’d save up for, like, two years…then move to Mexico or back to my own 3rd world nation, where I would live like ROYALTY. Literally. Mansions, servants, armed guards, luxury cars, fine living to rival the last days of Rome.

        Even if all you had was half a million in cash, that’s enough to spend the remainder of your life living like a Saudi prince in Mexico…without ever working a single day ever again.

    • ConfusedCountry

      You can call me a hater if you want. But you seem to not be able argue against my point can you? The truth is I don’t really care if they increase the number of H1-B visa to infinite, because as you said before in the end it is the CEO’s who are to blame.

      Microsoft thinks they can fix the skills shortage problem by increasing the number of visa’s and casting a wider net, the real problem is the market has already been flooded by so much low skilled labor we have a skills shortage and nothing will change that. In fact, I really hope Microsoft can hire all the low skilled labor they want so they can collapse under their own weight which is already happening.

      Just compare the results between Microsoft and Apple. Microsoft makes maximum use of H1-B and sending work to India, and Apple doesn’t. Do you see a quality difference?

      So call me a hater because I speak the truth. I think you are angry because the truth hurts and you can’t face the facts. I know it would bother me if Americans flooded to India and the quality of the industry went down and we eventually caused a skills shortage over there. Yes it would bother me, but if you pointed those facts out to me, I wouldn’t call you a hater, I would say you have the numbers on your side, and I would have to argue the point or accept the truth.

      I also know, that if the roles were reversed, and India invented all the Operating systems, databases, languages, libraries, frameworks, and the entire internet, I surely wouldn’t go over there and say “See, I can use all the technology you invented in India and do AJAX calls”. I personally would be embarrassed.

      So lets see if you can stop calling me a hater and deal with the truth. We all know you know AJAX. Now tell us, why you are not a low-skilled worker? Have some courage, stand up for yourself and argue my points. Tell me why the programmers who invented every thing you use, should now consider YOU and your AJAX skills a high skilled worker?

      The problem in the industry is that all the REAL programmers are gone, and all is left are people who can only use technology written by others. The industry is changing, and new technology needs to be written from scratch, and we have a skills shortage.

      This whole outsourcing reminds me of a Beatles Tribute band. If the Beatles were alive they would want a million dollars to perform a show, so the CEO’s outsourced the concert to a Beatles Tribute Band and said “See, an Indian tribute band sounds just like the Beatles and are a lot cheaper”.

      All of a sudden everyone gets tired of the old Beatles music, and the CEO’s say to the Beatles Tribute Band, hey we need a new Album with 12 new songs, and all of a sudden the Tribute band is saying “hey, we are not the Beatles, we can’t create anything from scratch”.

      …..hence, the skills shortage. Nothing comes from India. Nothing is invented there even though there are more programmers in India than the rest of the world combined. India, is like a giant Beatles Tribute Band of the computer industry.

      Don’t call me a hater, argue the point. Tell me I am wrong and why.

      The future looks grim for all the corporate CEO’s that outsourced and created the biggest Brain Drain in the history of humanity. There is no easy fix. Hiring Americans at this point won’t help either. Why? Because, hiring new musicians to learn from the Beatles Tribute Band will not create highly talented people either.

      The Mentorship is broken. There is no fix. I will say one thing. Back in the “day” when I only worked with Americans I never heard the quote “Let’s not re-invent the wheel”. Once we imported so much “talent” from India, now the quote of the day is “Let’s not re-invent the wheel”. That quote only means one thing. “I don’t know how to reinvent the wheel”, all I can do is use AJAX or Spring or Hibernate or …. or … to accomplish my task.

      We have a skills shortage. The shortage is real, but increasing visa’s won’t fix the problem and YOU know it, because I KNOW, that YOU know that everything I just said is TRUE and is why you would rather call me a “hater”.


    I have been laid off twice in the last ten year. On both occasions, I collected myself and I worked my way out. Both times, after few weeks, I got better jobs. That is the quality of this country – you rise like a phoenix. Companies change their entire product lines, people get sacked/replaced, they go home with a low morale and by the time next week rolls they are back in the job market. At that time H1-B/L1A/B1/B2 etc do not matter…this is an American phenomena. That is what makes this country the greatest place on this planet.

    You have called H1-B workers low skilled on at least ten occasions. How is it possible that they are replacing you? After all, no one replaces a Blue Ray Player with a DVD player and a DVD player with a VCR unless the quality of the blue ray player does not justify the cost. You are the self proclaimed blue ray player. Once again these are some basic questions that I would like you to answer. I think Ajax is way too much to handle for someone with your IQ.

    Every generation of immigrant came to this country for just one reason – to have a better life for him and for his next generation. It is also true that every established generation has accused the “fresh out of the boat” of the same BS – low wage/Can’t speak English/Do not assimilate in the society etc….

    Unlike your great grand pa, H1-B workers are not killing the native population.

    • If I may: Can we all calm down for a minute? I think both @Kumar and @ConfusedCountry are making some valid points, but I also think you’re pursuing red herrings. The argument here isn’t — and certainly shouldn’t — be about any particular ethnic group or country besides the United States. Because, after all, this is an American issue. I, certainly, am not going to criticize American workers, tech professionals or not. But I’ not going to criticize foreign workers, either. The entire issue of guest workers is about a government policy that’s backed by much of the American business community. I think it’s obvious why Americans struggling in a tough job market oppose it, and even take it personally. But I also can’t criticize those from other countries who see an opportunity in our official programs and decide to take it advantage it. At the end of the day, I think it’s the tendency to fall into the line of argument that always develops in these discussions that’s made the tech professionals’ opposition to these policies less effective than they might be. Insulting each other may make you feel better, but it doesn’t move the ball.

      Now that I’ve said all that, may I gently point out that you guys are dancing really close to violating our terms of service. Actually, you’ve crossed the line already, so would you back off of each other and get back to arguing the real points? (And, yes, I’ve done a little editing of your comments, but I tried to leave your major points alone.)


      • ConfusedCountry

        @Mark Feffer

        I just read what you wrote over a couple of times. I also re-read a few of my postings and that of Kumar. In hind sight I agree, neither of us are contributing constructively to the debate which is a real problem that needs to be solved. We are starting to sound like a couple of angry birds taking our frustrations out on each other. Thank you for pointing that out, and I wanted to apologize to the community for crossing the line.


        I also read your last set of comments, and you do make valid points that challenge my point of view. After sleeping on it and re-reading everything again today, I have come to the conclusion that it is the “indentured servant” part of the H1-B program that is the problem. All these problems will cure themselves once that is fixed, and I also believe that according to the rules of capitalism foreign workers should be paid MORE than US workers. The theory is that they are brought here because no qualified American can be found. If that is true, shouldn’t they be paid more?

        The requirement to pay more, would eliminate the frustration of Americans having to train their replacements, and would bring the truly best and brightest into the country–and if they are truly better, then they shouldn’t be indentured servants either. They have a skill, it should be immediately transferable to the highest bidder who could put that talent to good use. I think a small change such as this is something any American could get behind. Let’s face it everybody hates the H1-b rules. I am sure you do too.

        Also addressing your point about Apple outsourcing to China. Those jobs are low skilled assembly line workers doing repetitive tasks that CAN’T fail. I don’t think you can compare it to the work being sent to India.

        In closing it is wrong for me to blame you personally for the problems our government and CEO’s have created. Mark is right, and there is nothing wrong with people coming here to pursue their dreams, and nobody would pass up an opportunity to take advantage of a situation presented to them even if the circumstances are not ideal.

        Thanks for stepping in and adding some objectivity. I know it is difficult to balance the “freedom of speech” issue against “being constructive/not constructive” issue. I think you show good judgement.

        • @ConfusedCountry, thanks for your note. It’s hard to keep the emotions out of this debate, so every once in a while someone just needs to point out when they’re getting the best of us. In any case, I appreciate your thoughts.

  33. Samwise

    @ConfusedCountry – I don’t think you are a hater, but your tone definitely sounds like you are biased against the H1B visa holders who use the H1B program to pursue the american dream, although not putting too much blame on the government who conceived this program and is responsible for it’s current state. You also completely ignored the fact that the program binds H1B visa holders to their employers.

    Anyway, you said “Microsoft makes maximum use of H1-B and sending work to India, and Apple doesn’t. Do you see a quality difference?” — who told you Apple does not send work offshore ? The iPod, iPad, Mac etc. are all manufactured in factories in China/Taiwan/other Asian low-wage countries. So are you saying that Apple’s outsourcing to China works, but Microsoft’s outsourcing to India does not work ?? In fact, you seem to be implying that Apple’s outsourcing to China is great, but when Microsoft brings people from India on H1B to work in the US, the quality degrades ? The growth of a company is not determined by how many H1Bs it sponsors, but rather by the type of people they hire. If Microsoft were picking up PHDs from the market on H1B, it might have been a superior company to Apple. And yes, PHDs also use the H1B visa, and so do people with advanced (read Masters) degrees from US universities. What you said implies that these folks also fall within the same stupid category since they utilize the H1B visa.

    The other thing where I disagree with you is that today’s web programmer is a low skilled worker. What ??!! So the people who built LinkedIn are low-skilled, since they did not write their own web server. How about the people at Salesforce, they didn’t “re-invent the wheel” by writing their own database, instead, decided to host their entire platform on Oracle. You sound like my dad, who kept telling me that “in his days”, things were so much cleaner, and people were so hard-working, but today’s generation only needs to check facebook all the time.

    Let me take the example of the auto industry. Back in the “day”, the auto industry was the place to be, with high wages, job security, innovation etc. Now there was no influx of H1Bs into the auto industry, so how come there is no innovation, and things suck worse than the tech sector. How about the railroad industry- even this did not get invaded by H1Bs, so how come no money is being made there ? how about the power sector …. the list goes on. Bottom line is, each industry has it’s own growth cycle after which it stabilizes. Same is happening to the tech sector. Even if the H1B program is scrapped, do you think we are ever going to invent another “transistor” ? 15-20 years ago, people were motivated to write a web server because there were hardly any web servers available, and there was a ton of money to be made if it was a big success. I wouldn’t spend an year of my life writing a web server or a database that is inferior to the Apache/IIS/Oracles of the world and wouldn’t make me any money.

    But hey, I’m on H1B, so what do I know.

  34. @ TROTHAAR

    This is really getting interesting. When I said 1%, I should have said 1% in the state where I live. Also, I was talking about my house hold income. Both working in IT (Low skill category as some one said).

    Now about half a million in cash, I have not been to Mexico but it would not go too far in my home country. You need 200,000 USD to buy an apartment in a decent metro. While sadly some part of America is becoming third world (Detroit, MI, Gary,IN, East St Louis/IL) some of the third world is becoming first world. You can buy an apartment in Detroit in 1,000 USD. You might not find one month parking in some parts of Mumbai/Shanghai for that much.

    I do come to to find out what kind of jobs are in demand in my line of work.

    God Bless you.

  35. Voted for Obama

    IT has the lowest unemployment rates….. folks who can’t get an IT job in this market are probably the chaff who claim a lot but can’t do anything in the real world. They usually get screened out during the tech interviews. Do you know how many IT grad Americans in their 30s I’ve helped by cleaning up their resume? They got called within a day or two. They brag a lot but can’t even correct grammer, write a professional resume and some of the things kids should be knowing by the time they finish senior school.

    • I’m responding to “Do you know how many IT grad Americans in their 30s I’ve helped by cleaning up their resume?”

      I’d love to have any insights into my resume. However, I am older than being in my 30’s, even though I just graduated in 2006.

      • Voted for Obama

        I’m glad to help… I just get irritated sometimes because some of my friends who recently graduated in IT complain that the market is unfair to them and they deserve to get a job but when I take a look at their resume, it screams why they shouldn’t be hired.

        If you can post your resume and cross out details (with ‘XXXX’ so I know where they are placed) like your personal information (name, age, address,university information, previous companies worked at etc), I can provide suggestions. So far, all the suggestions I have made to my friends have got them getting multiple calls immediately….same folks who were searching for months at a stretch. After they have got calls, I’ve helped them with interviews also. It’s not rocket science but simple things that make a big difference in getting an IT professionals profile noticed.

        • Responding to “I’m glad to help… I just get irritated sometimes because some of my friends who recently graduated in IT complain that the market is unfair to them and they deserve to get a job but when I take a look at their resume, it screams why they shouldn’t be hired. ”

          Yes, i understand. I get a bit irritated myself 🙂 I’ve gone through the plain-text version of my resume, and edited identifying items, and I am pasting it here. To the other readers of this blog: sorry if this is stretching the subject being discussed.

          Steven R. Tabler
          XXXX Street
          XXXCity, XXState XXzip
          telephone: XXX.XXX.XXXX

          College Graduate, M.S. in Computer Science, B.S. in Computer Science. Experienced in developing firmware for

          embedded controllers using C and assembly language. Classroom assignments generally required C++ or Java, in

          either a Windows or Linux/Unix environment. Incidental use of several applications programs. Currently

          writing a book on programming, and studying C#.

          A challenging position as Software Engineer, Software Developer, or Computer Programmer with the possibility of

          career growth.

          * MS, Computer Science, University of XXXX, 2006
          * BS, Computer Science, XXXX College, 2001

          Computer Skills:
          * Languages: C, C++, C#, PHP, Java, LSL
          * Databases: MySQL, Access
          * Operating Systems: Windows, DOS, Linux, UNIX
          * Applications: Microsoft Visual Studio, Imagecraft C, gnu C, Metrowerks Code Warrior, Borland C++, Microsoft

          Word, Microsoft Excel, Microsoft Access, Microsoft Power Point, Microsoft Visio, Borland J Builder 2005, Forte

          for Java, Symantec Visual Café for Java, Mathematica 4.0, Adobe Photoshop, Eudora

          Work History

          Independent Consultant 4/1987 – Present
          XXX Company
          XXX City, State

          Performed duties on several projects according to the requirements of clients

          * Embedded controller major firmware update in C.
          * New Embedded controller firmware design and implementation in C.
          * Designed and manufactured two versions of a new embedded controller in 1990. Since that time, over 1,000

          units have been put into service.
          * Designed new embedded controller as drop-in replacement for existing controller. Wrote accompanying firmware

          in assembly language.
          * Accompanied client personnel to customer site to install and refurbish up to 60 embedded controllers as-

          needed in existing system.
          * Wrote new firmware in assembly language for existing embedded controller.

          Admin Temp II
          XXX Employer 8/2009 – 2/2010
          XXXXCity, State
          Performed data-entry of personal information supplied on forms and sent occasional form letters.

          Admin Temp I
          XXX Employer 8/2004 – 2/2005 & 4/2002 – 9/2002
          XXXXCity, State
          This temporary position I held twice. Both times, it involved working in the Master Files department. Duties

          included collecting mail, sorting mail, waiting on customers, and preparing appeals. This required wearing a

          pager on certain days, making copies of records, verifying certain records via computer, and filing mail.

          Association for Computing Machinery (ACM) 10/2000 – Present

      • Iwanttovoteforobama

        Sorry, I procastinated and get dozens of mails everyday…. I took some time out and made a few slight changes. Here are some of my reasonings for changes:

        1. Recruiters recieve 100s of resumes everyday and skim only the first few lines looking for key sections and key words. They spend on an average 10 seconds in that initial screen and short list the ones that catch their eye. I have few friends who are recruiters and they all tell me the same thing.

        So I included a summary section which presents a snapshot of yourself as a capable IT guy. This will make them hang onto your resume a bit longer.

        2. Took out parts that aren’t relavent to IT .i.e, temp jobs that had no software/serious IT work. These are irrelavent and may be a turn off for IT recruiters, if required, you can bring this up during the interview… after they know that you’re solid with your computer science.

        3. As mentioned before, recruiters look for key words and some words are eye catching while others have them make a pass. You already used key words like “designed” etc. I’ve added some to your work expeirence pointers such as “developed” “deployed”, “tested”, “supported” – these are all “action verbs” within the IT universe.

        4. I rewrote references that don’t sound IT…such as “Accompanied client personnel to customer site to install and refurbish up to 60 embedded controllers” – that sounds very 80s. Fast forward to 201x’s and it should sound like “Deployed, tested and supported up to 60 embedded controllers for existing systems at the client site.”

        5. Did some renaming: “Work History” to “Work Experience” and “Education” to “Professional Qualification” – same concept: should be eye catching and screaming “qualified professional”

        6. Clubbed your education and memberships under “Professional Qualification”

        7. Tweeked the skills section: Added some relavent sections for the 21st section (Source control): this isn’t too hard to pick up in a day or two…. find a tutorial and practice Visual Source Safe (VSS). This is pretty basic for today’s .Net environment. If you are not going to focus on Microsoft technologies like C#, ASP.Net etc, then look for source control tools used for Java and C such as open source versions (subverson or something). The bottom line is that being familiar with source control concepts is a minimum requirement in today’s IT industry. It might be confussing to set one up at home but my recomendation is to read about it and understand why it exists and then picking it up from a work environment should be straight forward.

        8. Most of the “applications” had IDEs in them…so I broke that off into an IDE section. Remember, your skills are there to protray you as a skilled programmer/developer so that makes sense.

        9. I introduced “Other applications” and included the extra non-programming stuff but stuff that could be relavent to IT – example – Visio (for designing), Office (clubbed Word, Excel, Powerpoint) and Photoshop.

        10. I recommend you familiarize with SQL and then choose a database to focus on other than MySQL – such as SQL Server or Oracle. Both are adopted heavily in the corporate world for application programming. MySQL has its place…but it’s not dominant in the corporate world. If you know SQL, then picking up on SQL Server or Oracle should be easy.

        11. If you have more information regarding your IT work, you should include that in your work experience section and convey it in IT action verb terms.

        Goal is for IT recruiters to notice your resume. Bold the secitons. Use IT related action verbs. Once they know you know your stuff, they will try to push you to their clients as they get a good cut if you get hired. You have stregnths and weaknesses. Goal of the resume is to convey every strength you have. Summary section is the place where it starts. You’re strengths are that you have professonal qualifications (BS, MS) and some experience in IT to back it up. You’re weakness maybe that you don’t have the experience with today’s software environment and tools…. the way to overcome that is to choose what you want to focus on (say, Microsoft technologies or Java) and then go through a tutorial at home and get your foundation strong…once your foundation is strong, you will be able to pick up. Getting that kick start is tha hard part. I love Microsoft evnronments because they have plenty of resources for anyone to learn and pick up…. very developer friendly. If you choose Microsoft, let me know and I can give provide some Microsoft related links.

        Steven R. Tabler
        XXXX Street
        XXXCity, XXState XXzip
        telephone: XXX.XXX.XXXX


        * IT consultant providing services and solutions for clients with over x number years for various roles within IT
        * Extensive experience in developing and deploying embedded system solutions using C, Assembly and xxxxxx.
        * Extensive experience in IT processes and mature methodologies.
        * Proficient in Microsoft development environments (C#,.Net, SQL Server), Linux/PHP/MySql environments and C++/Java programming
        * BS and MS in Computer Science. Possesses solid foundation and knowledge to contribute working solutions for any IT environment
        * Passionate programmer: currently writing a book on programming. Regular participant on IT forums.
        * Excellent communication skills: uses written and verbal for effective communication with clients to get things done.
        * My IT/Programming blog: (showing off that you love this stuff and know what you’re talking about)

        Professional Qualifications:
        * MS, Computer Science, University of XXXX, 2006
        * BS, Computer Science, XXXX College, 2001
        * Member of ACM (Association for Computing Machinery) since 10/2000

        Computer Skills:
        * Languages: C, C++, C#, PHP, Java, LSL
        * Databases: MySQL, Access
        * Operating Systems: Windows, DOS, Linux, UNIX
        * Source control: VSS,
        * IDE: Visual Studio, Borland J Builder, ImageCraft c, gnu c, Visual Cafe, Forte for Java,
        * Other tools: Visio, MS Office, Adope Photoshop

        Work Experience

        Independent Consultant 4/1987 – Present
        XXX Company
        XXX City, State

        Performed duties on several projects according to the requirements of clients

        * Embedded controller major firmware update in C.
        * New Embedded controller firmware design and implementation in C.
        * Designed and manufactured two versions of a new embedded controller in 1990. Since that time, over 1,000 units have been put into service.
        * Designed new embedded controller as drop-in replacement for existing controller. Wrote accompanying firmware in assembly language.
        * Deployed, tested and supported up to 60 embedded controllers for existing systems at the client site.
        * Developed new firmware in assembly language for existing embedded controller.

      • Iwanttovoteforobama

        oh, and I removed to “career objective” section – many recruiters have told me that they ignore this part. I don’t use it either. And another thing is that if you don’t word it crisp, concise and perfectly professional, it will make you sound like you don’t have a career and you need to get hired to get one… not confident enough. If you want to have one, I would go with something like “To use my software development skills and extensive experience providing IT solutions for clients to enable businesses achieve their goals and objectives.” or something to that effect.

        • @Iwanttovoteforobama ….I was doing some digging about VSS, and I have found some contradictory postings that say it is obsolete or not, and replaced by Team Foundation Server. I am not completely unfamiliar with source control: I have used Mercurial and Git, or rather, I’ve had to install and use programs to obtain open source files that used either Mercurial or Git. I thought I might have a copy of VSS from a few years ago, but I am mistaken. So I am going to look at VSS tutorials as you suggest, and include Mercurial on my resume.

          Regarding Databases….I’ve left Oracle off my resume on purpose: anyone trying to use it has my sympathy. My Oracle experience, admittedly, has been limited to the “free download for non-commercial purposes” Oracle has provided in the past, so I could have been using a buggy version from the start, and it has been a few years since I’ve looked at it. It seems that when I need a database, which isn’t very often, that MySQL gives me the least trouble to setup and get working. Given that WordPress, and a number of other web applications depend on MySQL, I thought it had finally become an acceptable solution.

  36. H1-B is a “Tax Subsidy” for the very Wealthy. It is not about pay, skill, or experience. If the Tax subsidy for the Wealthy was removed, the rest of it could remain.
    Lobby, Lies, and Wealthy Donations created and maintain H1-B.
    Why is the government raising income tax on the Workers and maintaining this horrible Subsidy for the Wealthy?
    H1-B workers should be required to carry Professional Insurance (Errors and Omissions). But, the Wealthy have lobbied against that too. The Wealthy want No Taxes, No Responsiblity and No Accountibility.
    The Wealthy should pay a fair share and be treated equal to the working class. Equality is an old American ideal that is now corrupted by H1-B supporters..

    • ollieallears

      This is a completely incomprehensible posting…. do you have any idea what you are talking about ?
      Now all of a sudden H1B workers are not just accused of lowering wages, stealing jobs, etc. but are also responsible for the growing inequality in US society ???!!!

      • Jimmy Lozano

        Believe it, or not
        EVERYTHING ON the statement posted by Silver is TOTALLY TRUE… no doubt.
        You can combine these two sentence:
        —-“”The Wealthy want No Taxes, No Responsiblity and No Accountibility””—-
        —-“”companies bringing random H1Bs and putting them in low paying jobs.””—-
        and…you will have two big reason why Unemployment remains HIGH in USA right now, and… why we’re still in recession right now.

      • ollieallears

        So what do the tax paying – or not paying habits – of wealthy USers have to do with H1B workers ?!
        I am willing to ponder any argument, but it in this discussion it must relate to the H1B issue.

        Now let’s say for arguments sage that about 25% of the H1B visa has not been issued correctly. We are still talking TEMPORARY work permits, with a max of six years. So in any given year now this country has about in total 100.000 workers that allegedly should not have been allowed in.
        In 2010 the US had 315 million inhabitants.
        So your numbers continue not to add up.

        Maybe you should visit you local library – there are a # of good books written recently about the roots of the economic downturn that we are experiencing (worldwide) for the last couple of years.
        Greed and stupidity had a lot to do with it. H1B workers are never mentioned as a cause, bytheway.

        The world is changing, the US and its economy with it. Modern communication makes production possible in places that were ‘before’ barely known to us. New products are created at an even faster pace and they require new processes.
        If any, H1B workers are a symptom of these changes. As is outsourcing.

        Anyone who knows anything about immigration to the US, is aware of the fact that it very hard to immigrate to this country because of a job. Again, the emphasis is family reunion. And the spouses (read: wives) of the H1B workers pay a very heavy price. It is called H4.

        In short: if you want to weather the current economic problems, if you want the US to stay the great country that it is/was, US citizens and newcomers have to work hard and have to work hard together. Playing the blame-game as is done here, will not accomplish anything. Getting ideas from & using the creativity of, H1B workers – and other immigrants ! – is a more productive way to tackle this issue.

      • drgenenelson

        Part 1 of 3:

        So, the count for “OllieAllEars” is now 29 in response to this article. This suggests to me that this poster either benefits financially from the controversial H-1B Visa program or derives some other form of benefit. However, despite repeated requests for this poster to explain their “passion” there has been no clarification. Many of this poster’s points echo those offered by apologists for the H-1B Visa program such as those from the immigration attorney’s association. (Immigration attorneys have a substantial financial interest in this debate as high profit margins are associated with the H-1B Visa program – and related programs.

        On the other hand, my opposition to this “government subsidy” program has been clear. I have explained how employer abuse of the program that employer interests designed and introduced in 1990 has caused me tremendous economic harm. To date, I estimate that my total financial losses caused by this program are well over $1 million. I have provided references regarding the political corruption used to establish and expand the H-1B Visa program. I provided sound economic reasoning why economic losses have occurred for me and very large numbers of other experienced American citizen technical professionals. I earned my natural science Ph.D. in 1984. This group has been particularly hard-hit by the large numbers of H-1B visa holders who have obtained Ph.D.s as a means to be granted priority in obtaining a “green card.” Since citizenship is fungible for these immigrants, and is nonfungible to Americans, employers are able to offer the lure of potential citizenship to compensate for the well-documented low wages received by most H-1B Visa recipients.

      • drgenenelson

        Part 2 of 3:

        As Cuban immigrant economist George Borjas has noted in numerous publications, a concentration of immigrants in any vocational field serves to drive down wages by causing a supply glut. Decreasing “white collar” wages increases income inequality. Borjas is a well-published Harvard economics professor. Some of my friends and acquaintances have been harmed to the point of suffering a premature death as a consequence of employer abuse of this controversial program.

        There is also a set of circumstantial data points that suggest that Black IT professional Andre Turner’s workplace murders of two supervisors and woundings of two other supervisors, including a likely H-1B, at the Rivergrade IT Campus of Southern California Edison (SCE) on 16 December 2011 had a connection with employer abuse of the H1-B Visa program. Turner was facing foreclosure of his home. Collabera (aka GCI), an outsourcer based in India, posted Labor Condition Applications for 3 immigrants with Turner’s job title at the Rivergrade campus that showed starting dates of 15 November 2011. Given that one common employer strategy is to force an American to train their imported replacement on a work visa as a condition for the American to receive their outplacement benefit, perhaps Andre’s last day of work was 16 December 2011. We will never know, as Turner committed suicide after methodically shooting the four SCE supervisors. …

      • drgenenelson

        Part 3 of 3:

        The number of H-1Bs that SCE had authority to hire at the Rivergrade campus was substantial. Many outsourcing firms also provided H-1B Visa recipients as well to SCE. On 20 June 2011, ComputerWorld published a feature for IT staffers, “The 100 Best Places to Work 2011” When ranked by percent minority staff, SCE ranked number 4 in the top 100 firms with a 64% minority staff, (N=1,143 minorities). However, the TOTAL number of the minority staff working for the top 3 firms was less than the 1,143 minorities working for SCE. (SCE’s CIO is Ms. Mahvash Yasdi, an Iranian immigrant whose total 2010 compensation was $1,878,848, per the Janco Associates mid-year 2011 IT Salary Survey) Despite repeated requests, SCE has declined to provide the number of imported workers currently employed at their Rivergrade Campus.

      • DrGeneNelson,
        What amazes me is this – how on earth do you have time to dig up all that stuff ? I mean, is this H1B hatred what you do for a living ? No wonder you’ve been replaced at your job – if you put as much effort in starting up a company and building a software product, it’ll do much more good to the US than all your H1B hatred put together.

        Anyway, I found your pointed references to specific persons quite offensive – please post your own name and other details before citing others’ details.

        @Mark Feffer – these references to the Collabera manager in DrGeneNelson’s post – is this within the terms of posting on dice ?

        • @Samwise, thanks for your note. Actually, no, the reference to the Collabera manager’s name is outside of our TOS, and I’ve removed it. Unless they’re a known executive, it’s one thing to discuss a person by title but quite another the name them.

          @drgenenelson: Unrelated to that, it seems to me there’s a lot of supposition to your comments. You say one of Turner’s victims was a “likely” H-1B. You say “perhaps” Turner’s last day of work was Dec. 16 and “we’ll never know” if he went on his killing spree because he was made to train his replacements. All of those are are huge leaps. It’s something like my arguing World War II history by citing scenes from “Tora, Tora, Tora.”

          I’m also not sure what describing Andre Turner as a “Black” IT worker has to with anything, or the fact that SCE’s CIO is an Iranian immigrant. With the latter you seem to be implying something about her being foreign-born, but I don’t know what.

      • drgenenelson

        @ Mark Feffer: The email from the Collabera manager working at SCE is a public domain document. This Collabera manager maintains a current LinkedIn profile showing that he works at the Rivergrade campus.

        The male SCE manager wounded by Andre Turner who is a likely H-1B has a current LinkedIn profile showing that he has worked for Patni for some time and is a Senior GIS Analyst at the Rivergrade campus. (Patni is an outsourcer based in India.) The CBS-2 accounts following the shooting provided a color photograph, name, and age of this manager. CBS-2 also identified him as a contractor. I also believe it is significant that the following was reported….We made several attempts to hear from immediate family members of Edison victims this weekend, with very little luck. Edison officials have camped outside their homes all weekend, telling us we cannot talk to them…..

        I continue to have concerns that it appears that SCE is maintaining a workplace at their Rivergrade Campus that seems to be hostile to experienced American citizen IT professionals. In the past, I have applied for IT work for SCE and my applications were never even acknowledged. I’m a native-born American citizen.

        In my long-term activism for the employment rights of experienced American technology professionals, I always work within the system, a principle I advocate other activists folllow. I do not condone the criminal actions of Andre Turner.

        • @drgenenelson: Whether it’s public or not, your use of his name and the implications that came with it aren’t acceptable to me as the moderator of these threads.

          Regarding the wounded manager, again, you continue to say “likely,” and I maintain that’s weak. You’re implying a lot. Has it occurred to you that one reason Edison officials were outside the families’ homes is because grieving people may not want to be bothered by the media? I think your arguments would be much stronger if you cited hard facts and left the implications out of it, but that’s just my opinion and I know people may disagree.

      • drgenenelson

        @Mark Feffer: SCE is unlikely to release this information. SCE probably considers the information to be “proprietary.” My professional training supports the use of “probably” or “likely” when I do not have strong proof. I only have a set of several data points consistent with this SCE manager having some form of work visa authorization.

      • drgenenelson

        @OllieAllEars Thanks for your post that was delivered in its entirety to my inbox. I recognize that you attempted to impute claims from my writings several times in your lengthy post. (Those claims are not supported by what I wrote.) BTW, the best hint that you provided so far seems to be your strong objection to the lack of work visa authorization for H-4 recipients. Note that being able to work in the U.S. is perceived as far more financially rewarding for a worker from the developing world, as the salary increase when they migrate is far higher than it would be for a worker from the developed world.

      • ollieallears

        @DrGene: I had my posting removed because it made this discussion too much focused on your writings. But I invite everybody involved in this discussion, to Google DrGeneNelson and read some articles he wrote. Be amazed about his use of numbers, apparently a Ph.D. does not do a lot for one’s knowledge of statistics and methodology.
        Also I found that DrGene employer is (was ?) NumbersUSA, an organization that is anti-immigration, often unpleasantly so. E.g. according to this club immigrants are now also to blame for water shortages !
        (Now I understand DrGene’s comments that I probably had ‘interests’ in immigration-lawyering. The shoe is on the other foot: it is DrGene who needs to profile himself as an immigration foe. As we say where I come from: whose bread you eat, those words you speak.)

        My problem with DrGene and others is, that their ‘facts and figures’ are so inflated&convoluted&mixed up, they cannot be taken seriously – both not the writers and as well as the ##. But immigration is a serious issue, worthy of, and in need of, a serious discussion. The first thing that is needed is a proper use of statistics, with the correct and current facts and figures.
        And if we talk immigration, we talk about all immigration, not just the H1B workers. Who bytheway, represent about 0.05 % of the total work force, according to NFAP. The numbers given by NFAP are more in line with the numbers that USCIS/DOS gives.

        Polluting the discussion about immigration are referrals to out-of-date and cited out of context YouTube videos, newspaper clippings from 10 years ago, etc.
        Since the H1B visa can now be renewed in one year increments under certain conditions after the original six years, the number of H1B visa issued is hughely inflated and does not represent the number of new workers that are in reality admitted in. The number of consular issed visas is probably the more correct number.

        If I worked for NumbersUSA I would be more concerned with the proliferation of internet-chatrooms and the large number of foreigners that meet US citizens this way, in many cases leading to marriage and immigration to the US. I would also do my utmost to end the so-called Diversity Lottery, originally a brainchild of Ted K. to bring in more Irish. This now worldwide lottery has turned into some kind of pet project for Dem. senators and representatives who often express the wish to double the numbers.

        @MarkFeffer: thank you for your help (removing a posting of mine promptly).

      • drgenenelson

        @OllieAllEars: You continue to misrepresent my writings and the statistics that I have carefully researched. You fail to address some of the basic points that I have raised repeatedly: A supply glut of IT professionals caused by extremely liberal granting of work visas for a narrow group of occupations harms the career interests of experienced American citizen IT professionals. Your arguments make it clear to me that you are neither an experienced American citizen IT professional, nor are you sympathetic to their career interests…. Here’s something to consider. Richard Tax wrote an insightful article in 1992 whose title summarizes a problem very well, “Today’s Immigrant – Tomorrow’s Victim.” Interested readers may locate the article by searching for it by its title. Many naturalized H-1Bs that came to America in the early 1990s are now being treated exactly like American citizens (because they ARE American citizens now). Their jobs are being cut and they are being replaced by young H-1Bs.

        Your selection of the so-called research of Stuart Anderson (NFAP) is suspect. Stuart is not an academic. Stuart has apparently become quite wealthy promoting the expansion of work visa programs. Stuart advocated for increased work visas when was a staffer for Senator Spencer Abraham, a one-term U.S. Senator from Michigan who was voted out in 2000. Spencer Abraham now serves on the NFAP advisory board.

        I last worked for NumbersUSA in 2009 as an IT staff member. NumbersUSA advocates for a return to the traditional levels of immigration to the U.S., which are far lower than the current levels. I also clearly advocate for that policy change because I share the career interests of experienced American citizen IT professionals. I have worked in the IT field for several decades.

        • @OllieAllEars and @drgenenelson, I’m going to ask you both to halt your pot shots at each other. Aside from anything else, it’s not productive and adds nothing to the topic at hand. You’ve each made your points about each other and I think the rest of us following this thread get the idea. If you want to debate each other’s facts, figures and perspectives that’s fine, of course. But there’s no reason to slip into insults and accusations while you do it.



    • ollieallears

      @MarkFeffer. I agree. And if I wrote anything that was offensive, I wholeheartedly apologize, also please feel free to remove it. I hope you – and others here understand that some posting got ‘under my skin’.
      I also agree that by now I have made my point and it has become repetitive. Bytheway I have been giving facts and figures – based an USCIS – but have hardly seen a proper rebuttal of those.
      Making suspect the persons and insitutions that do not agree with you, is not a serious counter-argument.

      The personal is political and vice versa. No I am not an IT professional, it is my better half who is. I used to be a professional, in a different field, in my home country. (DrGene is right that I have an economic interest in an immigrant, CA being a community property state.)
      We came to the US about 20 years ago and it took over 8 years to get our green cards. (We were in the cohort that still had to leave the country after 6 years, wait for over a year and then could come back in a different visa.)
      I knew I had to leave behind family, friends, colleagues, and my job. I also knew that for a few years I would not be able to work because of the H4. In case you do not know, H4 does not allow work, does not allow volunteering, does not allow you to start your own business, does not allow you to work for an employer outside of the US. I had not expected that so many things would go wrong with our green card application, that back logs would be so extensive, etc. etc.
      If you have not worked for such a long time, nobody will hire you, you are damaged material. So the H1B/green card of my other half cost me all that was important to me – my ability to work, my ability to generate income, my sense of self-worth, my ability to interact with people, and so much more. I lost almost all of my SS rights back home and have not been allowed/able to build any rights here for SS/Medicare, something that is very scary for me.
      If this sounds whiny, yes maybe so, but this is all facts.
      I hope some of you now understand where my responses originate from. My ex-H1B holder came because he was offered a good job and and got charmed by the challenge. I think he contributed a fair share to US society, and it did not cost the US a dime as all his education and years of experience were achieved outside of the US. Peolple who worked in his teams raved about him, told me how much they learned thanks to him. Often they got promotions or were able to take better jobs. So it is very hard for me to read here now how we are seen as some kind of public enemies.

      Well that was it I think, and my thanks to everybody here who took the time to read/react.

      @JimmyL: the posting that was removed was removed at my request.
      The gist of it: I critisized DrGene’s ## – he lumps together all temporary visa incl. those for students and interns, thus counting about 25 million jobs lost to USers. He then assumes that because of the foreigners USers are paid on average 50,000 less and thus arrives at a loss of 24 trillion. The article was published in “Social Contract” so Google and read for yourself.

      Now I could add to this discussion that had US immigration policies been more strict, you would never have had in this country the incomparable Steve Jobs. But I will not do that as it would be a cheap shot. But oops, I just made it, sorry.

      • Jimmy Lozano

        But… after read all your posts and particularelly this comment… I still don’t understand Why you are still in favor of all those kind of visas or permission to work…???, and you are NOT agree with: only have a GREEN CARD, to be like a citizen/resident in USA…???, I Understand all post from drgenenelson, because are based in the classic racist/selfish thought of the many citizen/resident in USA (no mention web-site to not be removed…), but, from you…???

        TO ME, the only way to HELP at people who want the REAL AMERICAN DREAM is give the SAME opportunity like the CITIZEN of USA HAVE RIGHT NOW; and, at the same time, HELP the economy in USA right now, avoid all THOSE KIND of visas like H1B and STOP all outsourced jobs that belongs to USA.

      • ollieallears

        @JImmyL. I do not think DrGene is racist or selfish. He is a citizen of the US and as such has every right to influence political thought as he sees it. He probably has children and wants the best society possible for them and their offspring.
        Originally the H1 visa/its precursor was a work permit for a limited time and in limited numbers. He, and many others, wants this original set-up back.
        While I do not agree with his (ab)use of facts and numbers, I agree with him on the necessity to have a clear policy towards immigration, and that it should benefit the country, not just a few individuals.

        Immigration is an issue in every “first world” country. Almost all of them try to limit the numbers and it leads to more illegal immigration. And if you look at the histories of those countries it is often the immigrants, and/or their childeren who became artists, scientists, etc.
        A related problem, also seen in the US, is that illegal immigrants usually do not leave, as they do not know whether they can get back in. And they often have large debts to pay of to those who smuggled them in.
        Maybe the solution is to just open the borders, only check for diseases, criminal tendencies, terrorist inclinations. The life of an immigrant is not easy – you do not need an H4 for that – so probably many will leave and return to homeland and family after a while.

        I am kind of split on this issue: I come from a country that is already densely populated and many more people want to live there. Many of them have hardly any education so there are no jobs for them, some need financial/medical etc. assistence right-away. And a few want to change our laws and limit rights for women. In the last few years in my country the rules have become stricter I must admit. And some voices there go much further than anything DrGene has ever written.

        If you want ‘the american dream’ I can only urge you to study as much as you can, to get as much experience as possible, and to make sure you speak/write English better than the average USer. I wish you all the best !

  37. Samwise

    Just wanted to point out this article on the NYTimes –

    It talks about how immigration enforcement has outspent the FBI, Bureau of Arms etc. …. also talks about how immigration enforcement agencies have referred more immigration violation cases to the courts than ALL OF JUSTICE DEPARTMENT AGENCIES COMBINED !!! This, to me, is the ultimate proof that immigration has been under the government scanner for the past few years, with more and more stringent enforcement of the law. True, the article talks about illegal immigration, but the same agencies are responsible for the H1B, L1B and Green Card programs.

    My point – immigration law is being more and more strictly enforced in this country. Just replying to all who have been cribbing about companies bringing random H1Bs and putting them in low paying jobs. It might have been true in the 1990s ….. but it’s definitely not true in the 2010s.

    • drgenenelson

      In rebuttal to the questionable claims of a Migration Policy Institute report that is the subject of the above New York Times article, please see Jessica Vaughan’s 10 January 2013 report, “New Report Offers Deceptive Assessment of Immigration Enforcement”.

      ….A new report being promoted by the Migration Policy Institute (MPI), a research institute dedicated to promoting migration, paints a deliberately misleading picture of the state of immigration law enforcement. The report, titled Immigration Enforcement in the United States: The Rise of a Formidable Machinery, is presented as an objective assessment of immigration programs, and has been widely covered in the news media — but is riddled with false statements, cherry-picked statistics, and inappropriate comparisons…

  38. Jimmy Lozano

    BY SAMWISE | JANUARY 21, 2013
    What amazes me is this – how on earth do you have time to dig up all that stuff ? I mean, is this H1B hatred what you do for a living ? No wonder you’ve been replaced at your job – if you put as much effort in starting up a company and building a software product, it’ll do much more good to the US than all your H1B hatred put together.

    Anyway, I found your pointed references to specific persons quite offensive – please post your own name and other details before citing others’ details.

    Seriously SAMWISE… why you asking for names and directions for a person with a point of view…???, everybody here, who are following this article in particular, KNOWS that almost like 75% of the people are agree with avoid all HB1 visas and all kind the visas related to that one; AND… unfortunately you are part of the 25% agree with this kind of visas…, but please think that: the other 75% of the people are talking about the VISA’S or this kind of PERMISSION TO WORK in USA… no-body is talking about of the PERSON ITSELF… that you are trying to defend.
    Do what I’m doing right now…, try to explain at the people the really true about those kind of visas that NOT WORK VERY WELL AT ALL for ANYBODY, and the only way to work here in USA must be with the GREEN CARD and follow the all rules like the American Resident/Citizen are doing right now.

    • drgenenelson

      @Jimmy Lozano: I use only my real name in postings, despite your intimation that I do not. I have been an activist for the employment rights of experienced American citizen technical professionals since 1979. My disdain for this employer-designed program is confined to how employers have devised and expanded such a despicable program that harms native-born Americans and immigrants alike. Americans are pitted against work visa recipients by the H-1B Visa program. Some of my best friends are current or former H-1Bs.

      My goal is to replace the corrupt H-1B Visa system with a new system that serves the national interest, rather than the greedy economic elites who are the primary beneficiaries.

  39. Jimmy Lozano

    @MarkFeffer: thank you for your help (removing a posting of mine promptly).

    OLLIEALLEARS…. Can you do me a favor… can you send me all your DELETED comments at my e-mail address please
    before any of my/yours or others comments will be deleted again…

    thanks for your cooperation.

  40. Jimmy Lozano

    If you want ‘the american dream’ I can only urge you to study as much as you can, to get as much experience as possible, and to make sure you speak/write English better than the average USer. I wish you all the best !

    Without JOBS right now in USA…. and without any equality opportunity, to be like citizen/resident of USA… everything you post in the paragraph above is converted to a simple “desired dream”
    Where is the HELP of the government to created a GREAT COUNTRY based from the family immigration policy equality…???, why can we NOT take the same example from 1774 ???

    • ollieallears

      If I have US history correctly 1774 was the year of the Boston tea party, officially the US still conisisted of 13 colonies then. In the years before, many ‘indentured’ people were imported from Europe who often labored under appaling conditions, white slaves basically that were worked to death. I do not think we want to go back to that….

      The emphasis of US immigration policy now is family reunion, although for permanent residents the wait can be 6 years or longer to bring in a spouse (and children).
      The total # yearly for all family reunion (USCs and LPRs) is about 750.000.

      A chance for you, however small, is maybe the yearly Diversity Lottery (unless you live in eg. India then you are excluded from participating).
      For now let us wait and see if/what changes will be made in immigration policies.
      But the US will never be able to accomodate all the people that want a better life for themselves or their children. It is as simple as that.

      • @OllieAllEars – “But the US will never be able to accomodate all the people that want a better life for themselves or their children. It is as simple as that.” –

        True, but I would like to point out something that I was alluding to in some of my earlier posts. Not all people who want a better life for themselves are seeking accommodation in the US. What I mean is that one of the desired/undesired side effects of the convoluted green card/H1B process is that there are a lot of skilled immigrants who are looking for greener pastures outside the US. I can certify this because I myself have been talking to others who are stuck like me, and some have even already left for their native countries and started businesses there. Also, I did some back of the envelope calculation, and found that I would have saved a good amount **even if I stayed in India, where I am from**. Just to give you some numbers – if you and your spouse are both working in technology, you can save around $40K living in a big Indian city. I can live pretty comfortably with that much money since the cost of living is low.

        I’m by no means saying that the US has lost it’s attraction for technology professionals – I still love this country, it’s freedom etc. and want to settle here. But if this country is not really welcoming immigrants like me, well, there are other great places on this planet too.

  41. Jimmy Lozano

    BY SAMWISE | JANUARY 24, 2013
    @OllieAllEars – “But the US will never be able to accomodate all the people that want a better life for themselves or their children. It is as simple as that.” –

    OLLIEALLEARS, SAMWISE… Seriously… 0.0
    Do you believe in this sentence…???
    Why think that USA is unable or lack the capacity to accommodate all people who need it…???
    Are you thinking only of Yourselves, or the benefits of others…???
    You know… is the same thought if you ask at the wealthy people, why THEY DON’T WANT PAY more taxes than the middle class people in USA.
    Now.. I Understand BETTER with this kind of thought why USA is still in Unemployment high levels and still in bad economic recession.
    USA HAS ALL CAPACITY and ALL ABILITY to accommodate any person who wants it, long as you follow the laws established since 1776. aka CONSTITUTION
    (by the way… sorry ollieallears i was wrong for 2 years)
    I will glad to read THE TRUE REASON why USA CAN NOT accommodate any person who desired it, to come here, and live the Real American Dream.
    Another hint… Why you DO NOT believe that the government SHOULD give the money to the people, to be SPENT right here in USA, and that same money back to the government ?

    • ollieallears

      @ Jimmy: every year about 10 to 15 milljon people participate in the so called Diversity Lottery. And India, China, Mexico, UK and several other countries are excluded, were the inhabitants of these countries allowed to enter too, the # would easily be over 20 million.
      All those participants aspire to live and work in the US. While I agree that a lot of these would-be immigrants have education, experience, skill, etc. and would be a boon to US economy, many of them would be hard pressed to find a job.
      So yes I am thinking about resoucerces like air and water – very precious commodities, furthermore what a number like that would mean for educational needs, medical services, social services. And the # of jobs required.
      Pleas realize that while the US is touting itself as ‘a nation of immigrants, the reality is that for most of its history the number of immigrants have been limited and as was the ‘kind’ of people the US welcomed. Eg. if you were healthy but limped you were not welcomed, and we all know about the boat full of Jews that was sent back to Germany (for extermination).
      US statistics state (proudly) that 1 in 8 inhabitants of America was born outside of the US, well for my country of origin the number of foreign inhabitants is 1 in 5.

      @DrGeneNelson: I have done more reading on web sites for (would-be) immigrants. What I found is participants enthousiastic about a (technical) job they landed – that pays $ 33.000/year and for which they are issued J-1 visas. This to me is a bigger issue than H1B, as a J-1 visa holder who works under 2 years does not need to pay taxes (except state) hence the employer does not pay its part of those taxes either. Also the spouses are issued J-2 visa and can go and work wherever they want (although paying taxes etc.) Of course J1/J2 can not lead to a green card, but still: is this what J1 visas are meant for ?
      So where is NumbersUSA when it comes to this development ?!

      • ollieallears

        An interesting intiative. Let’s see what happens…
        Canada already had a system more geared towards immigration through work. It assigned points for speaking one or both of its languages, education, experience, skills, etc. That feels more fair towards its citizens as well as the would-be immigrants.

        For temporary jobs the rules are not that much different from those the US. Before a job can be filled by a foreigner, an LMO (Labor Market Opinion) is needed and it has to be shown that for that job the employer cannot find a Canadian citizen or long term legal resident. Same as the rules now for H1B visa.

        My personal experience: about ten years ego we went to Canada becuse my husband took a temprary job there. Canada punishes the spouses (read: wives) even more than the US does I found: I was not allowed to work, was not allowed to go to school and did not get Canadian health insurance.
        (Recently somebody the rules for spouses/partners changed – after I left of course.

  42. Joe Blocks

    Well Ladak, if you are there, the Senate gang of 8 proposal would require you list those jobs on a public searchable website for 30 days before giving them to H1Bs

  43. This is all just painful prelude to what is really an inevitable conclusion:

    1) The IT business is moving toward a skills model rather than a professional model, somewhat like being a plumber or electrician.

    2) The state of automation is demanding a 25% reduction in global productivity. However, the US still desperately clings to an old model of ever-increasing productivity, and drives it’s citizens and corporations to accomplish that.

    3) As the last “third world” nations disappear and become fully industrialized, the need for closed borders have diminished .

    Continuing to push for increased productivity, attempts to control labor flux, and to “protect” our industry are all failed approaches, leading to far more pain and displeasure than is necessary.

    Open the global labor markets, move to a 30 hour work week, retrain American IT professionals, and lets get on with running the earth and advancing to the next technological age.

  44. Here is another truth, specific to IT: IT Delivery managers get their promotions by making hapless immigrants work 3 times as much as a US worker. The worker is HELPLESS against the abuse. The IT Delivery managers take BIG bonuses by delivering more work on less budget! Cheap labor is not the only motivation. Personal gain is a great motivation to hire immigrants and make them work more than they should. Hiring US citizens could result in lawsuits if they do such things. Makes sense?

    Immigrants come to US seeking a better life and all they end up with is losing their life to these greedy narcissists. The immigrants hang on and bear the abuse because many come to US in order to earn and support their families. There is NO protection against these practices as lawsuits don’t really give justice. Atleast two Americans are losing their jobs per immigrant and the immigrant is forced to fill up for them due to this lack of justice – all in the name of COST CUTTING! As long as US keeps selfish, greedy, narcissists in leadership positions, THIS WILL NEVER END!!!