Tech Workforce Slams Microsoft’s H-1B Proposal

Microsoft wants to increase the number of H-1B visas by 20,000, bringing the total up to about 105,000 a year, and to raise the cost to about $10,000 a head from $2,800. The new proposed visas would go solely to STEM workers. Under Microsoft’s plan, the higher fees would produce $5 billion to be invested in U.S. STEM education over the next 10 years.

U.S. VisaThe company is also urging Congress to take advantage of 20,000 unused green card visas each year, and reallocate them to workers with science and technology skills.

In announcing the proposal, Brad Smith, Microsoft’s executive vice president and general counsel, said the U.S. education produces only half of the graduates needed to fill the estimated 120,000 computer-related jobs requiring at least a bachelor’s degree that will be created in each of the next 10 years. “It’s a problem that’s approaching dimensions of a genuine crisis,” he argued, adding that his company has 6,000 unfilled positions, including 3,400 openings for researchers, developers and engineers.

Microsoft was the top employer seeking H-1B visas, an annual average of 4,109 over the previous decade, according to a Brookings Institution report cited by Bloomberg. India’s Tata Consultancy Services ranked No. 2, seeking an average of 3,179 visas, and Arlington, Va.-based Deloitte Consulting was third, seeking on average 2,981. The think tank also noted that Midwestern companies are increasingly relying on foreign workers to fill highly skilled jobs.


Not everyone likes Microsoft’s approach. “The short answer is that the Microsoft proposal is simply slick PR, designed to deceive,” contends UC-Davis Computer Science Professor Norm Matloff, a longtime H-1B opponent. Matloff believes the bigger issue is ageism. In a recent edition of his e-newsletter, he questioned why Microsoft doesn’t reduce the number of open positions by hiring back workers it laid off in the last couple of years.

Programmers Guild founder John Miano believes there is no labor shortage in IT, and says Microsoft is using the same old arguments that have been around since the 1990s. Counting only computer science majors fails to take into account the number of people with other majors who make up a large portion of the IT work force.

“The first priority should be fixing the problems that have been documented in government audits over the years: underpayment [of workers], fraud, the bogus prevailing wage calculation, displacement of Americans, and enforcement.” In the 22 years since the H-1B program began, he points out, Congress has raised the number of visas three times but done nothing to address these issues. “Fix the problems first, then look at the visa numbers,” he said.

Still, Miano agrees that the cost of the visas should be raised as Microsoft suggests. “The government should be auctioning the visas off to the highest bidder to get the maximum value for them.”

…and Support

Eric Silver, CEO of Pittsburgh-based shopping startup Pikimal, says his opinions on the matter of guest workers are colored by the many “brilliant” foreign-born students he encountered in graduate school. “Increasingly, industries are competing on the basis of their software,” he said. “The basis of our future competitiveness comes from the quality of the software that we’re writing now.”

Silver would prefer an approach that doesn’t require companies to pay visa fees. That way, “even the poorest startup would be able to hire brilliant developers, no matter their birthplace. Even though Microsoft’s approach primarily benefits companies with deep pockets, anything that can be done to connect foreign developers with local opportunities will ultimately benefit everyone.”

Another supporter of the H-1B program is Ali Behnam, co-founder of Bay Area tech staffing firm Riviera Partners. “Our schools are not turning out enough developers.  We see an acute shortage here in the valley,” he observes. “Unfortunately, learning to become a programmer is not something where existing workers can be retrained.” Even $10,000 us a “small investment,” he says. “A developer easily adds $1 million to $2 million in value to a company’s valuation, so it is still a high return on investment.” In addition, “Many of these people end up staying and becoming very productive citizens.”

Is there a real labor shortage, or are visa supporters just ducking other issues? Share your thoughts in the comments below.

362 Responses to “Tech Workforce Slams Microsoft’s H-1B Proposal”

  1. It’s obvious that we are in a recession. U6 unemployment is over 16%. Many STEM professionals that are over 50 have been discarded.

    We have sent the high paying blue collar (manufacturing) jobs to China. We have outsourced good paying (family supporting jobs) STEM jobs to India, and have imported many foreign people to undercut STEM wages. This is why the economy / housing market is not recovering – corporations have gutted decent paying jobs. 25% of the jobs in the US pay less than $10 / hr.

    Why don’t these ‘brilliant’ people work to make their country a first world nation? If these people are so brilliant, how come their country is 3rd world? Generations of Americans have worked to build this country. Foreigners waltz right in to the US and hijack our jobs and send the money home.

    Ali and Eric are maggots, wrecking the country for a few bucks.

    • It isn’t the foreigners hijacking our economy, it’s our corporations. They aren’t looking at the long term, they’re only looking at what makes their stock price go up this week, and cutting cost is the easiest way to boost profit margins. It’s an illusion, but since the stock market buys it, execs think it’s a good strategy.

  2. The biggest problem I see is that it takes money from the US and tends to send it overseas through salaries. We have the same problem with illegal aliens who come here and send their money home rather than spend it here.
    since this is a one-way process, we end up with people looking for work (because foreigners are given many of the jobs that we COULD do, but often demand a higher price so it makes sense that businesses would rather pay the lower wages) and we end up with less money to go around because the jobs are not here and the money that goes out is not spent here to help the local economies, which tends to depress the areas and lead to more unemployment.
    Obviously, this is a complex issue, with many factors, but I think that ultimately this hurts our economy unless we can contain it better with fair trading practices rather than this 1-sided process.

  3. Fred Bosick

    “Silver would prefer an approach that doesn’t require companies to pay visa fees. That way, “even the poorest startup would be able to hire brilliant developers, no matter their birthplace.”

    If these people are so brilliant, why would they work for the poorest startup? Could it be that that the sponsoring company holds their visa and that, if the job goes away the visa holder is deported? Why don’t they just chain these people to the boat on the way to the plantation?

    “Unfortunately, learning to become a programmer is not something where existing workers can be retrained.”

    In 1950 there were just a handful of computers and *no* computer science graduates. Did IBM, or the Eckert-Mauchly corporation complain that there were no qualified Americans to take these new programming jobs?

    These people are shameless in their naked pleas for even more indentured servants despite the current economy.

  4. Microsoft should go to the urban areas within Detroit, NYC, LA, etc. and train & recruit minority students. Thereby positively contributing to the country; but NOOOOOOO
    Bill Gates & his mis-management team at Microsoft, decided to exploit foreign labor.

    Maybe Bill Gates & Microsoft are racists ??????????

    American business model gravitates toward outsourcing = exploitation, and avoidance from dealing with US labor laws.

    Add Microsoft to the Shame Hall of Fame, and to the Boycott list

  5. In 2010 I graduated Cum Laude with a degree in Technology Management and Information Security Assurance. I have been unemployed for the past 17 months, even with 10+ years in IT and 5 years as a Software Tester. I have applied to over 300 jobs with many agencies and still have not been offered a job. We’re right here Microsoft, but you don’t really care about that now do you! Here is an idea…go to the unemployment offices and sent in your representative to find the talent that is already sitting there struggling to find a job. How about offering training services to help those like myself that may not have all these supposed skills that you are desperately in need of. Let me guess not in you best interest either.

  6. ConfusedCountry

    Actually, I believe it is a good idea to raise the price for an H1-B visa. They should also raise the salaries of an H1-B visa holder. The whole reason they are here is because (supposedly) “They are the best and the brightest” and no qualified American can be found. If this is true, then they should not be paid prevailing wage, but something higher, and any company should have no problem paying at least a 25% for somebody so highly skilled. Plus it would only be fair to the worker. If they are truly “The best and the brightest” then they deserve the extra pay.

    But if they are NOT “the best and the brightest”, and are instead low skilled cheap labor, then no American company would be willing to pay the premium, and would instead hire an American.
    This would clean up our industry and raise the quality of all workers, and by doing this, we would quickly find that the 65,000 limit is more than enough, and in fact, I am willing to bet that the limit wouldn’t even be filled because most companies would balk at the idea of paying more.

    The whole house of cards would come tumbling down, and we would soon find, that these visa’s are only really needed for cheap low skilled labor, and the skill shortage myth would come to an end.

  7. In case of H1B some of them (may be 25%)are bright and brilliant and rest of them are junk. The american companies are looking for cheap workers and contractors and the american managers want to hire people with low skills for full time or with some cut in billing in contracting that way their positions are safe. I have seen many cases. Just go and check all the MS students here with zero years of experience in software they are getting jobs.
    I bet that 50 to 75% software development can be easily done by american high shcool students. If they give me chance and students( they should be interested) for six months, I will show the results.
    With proper training 75 % of the IT work can be done by high schoolers in America. But I do not know whether the companies are realizing this and willing to train them or the students are willing to take up that kind of jobs or not.

    • Jimmy Lozano

      Well… Let me see JOHN
      Right Now Germany Has the most strong ECONOMY, in the famous “EURO money countries” in EUROPA, they have the most strong BANK’s system in EUROPA too, so following your question is this true???… I would like to said MUST BE TRUE.
      Why they must have secret this “controversial formula of success”???… is because the famous legacy that they have from WW2.

  8. People are leaving the IT field. The wages today are less than they were 15 years ago. There is no incentive to stay in this field. Indian and other foreign workers come here under the visa program live in substandard housing and contribute nothing to the local community and send the money home to india or other foreign countries. There are plenty of underemployed and unemployed US citizens being betrayed by their goverment by outsourcing to hostile foreign nations. Not only do we cause unemployment in this way, all of our vital infrastructure, software and services is being managed by cheap, semi skilled foreign nationals who do not hold this nations interest, its intellectual property or its citizens in high regards.

  9. Proud Paulbot

    —–Unfortunately, learning to become a programmer is not something where existing workers can be retrained——-

    I’ll buy that if the existing worker is, say, a construction worker, a truck driver or a clerical worker with no education in tech.

    I don’t buy it when it comes to existing tech workers, including those who are currently unemployed, and with graduates such as myself, who have no tech work experience but who managed to get a bachelor’s degree in the field.

    I don’t buy that–with a degree in Math & Computer Science–it is impossible for an employer to train me to do ANYTHING…not even QA testing or technical writing. The second one really gets my goat. I have a writing background, so the employer wouldn’t be training me how to write–that’s impossible–just how to use whatever software the company uses to spit out its manuals, which is fully possible.

    All this said, I don’t blame the H-1B program exclusively for this problem. This country is in a Depression…and America’s best days have passed it by.

    • We are in a Depression – both economically and morally. I don’t think we are going to pull out of the economic Depression. Why not? Because we shipped most of our manufacturing, and the equipment, and the ‘how to’ to China. Once they have the ‘how to’ they won’t even need us any longer. Same goes with the STEM jobs – outsourced. We have lost so many quality jobs, that there isn’t enough purchasing power to get the economy going again. It seems our major industries are now communication, insurance, finance, medical, fast food, and entertainment. None of which produce anything.

        • Paul said: “I just wonder…who, exactly, is going to buy all of this software and all of these newfangled electronic gadgets when NOBODY IS MAKING ANY MONEY?”

          Not only that, but you keep needing more and more stuff: An IPad, an IPhone, then you need a 4GL plan, a ‘family’ plan, home plan, Direct TV, XM radio, NetFlix, Identity Monitoring, Carbonite – the list goes on and on,

          To quote Charles Hugh Smith: “In the mindset of the consumerist economy, purchasing something feels empowering because the act of consuming is experienced as renewing our sense of identity and social status. But since that identity is inauthentic, the sense of euphoric renewal is short-lived and soon defaults to the base state of insecurity.”

  10. Leo Romero

    I came to the US more than eight years ago with a H1B visa…but no job. The company that sponsored my visa happened to be nothing more than a three employess corporation. I had no idea about this. After a year already with my H1B visa approved, I decided to come over by myself and start searching for projects. I was threaten to be sued for this decision by this company, I had seven years of IT experience already in my backgorund. After three months in this country, I was able to transfer my visa to another company which also helped me to apply for my green card two years later. My dream was always to coming to the US and setle down. I guess I am part of the 25% of those who stay and provide the best to this country. I am also suffering those insane decisions about outsourcing, and hiring mediocry “senior” H1B visa holders… I have been a contractor/consultant for more than 14 years, and I see today how IT is being managed by big corporation as a two dollars an hour picking apple job… This country has too much human potential to give away, that I do nto understand how come there s not a law that could control how outsourcing is being handled. Not all H1B holders are bad, and low experienced, however I am agree with all the comments/frustration commented below.

    • It’s not really a question of good or bad. It’s a question of what’s available here first

      H1-B”s are really only to bring in talent that does not exist, in other words it’s to help America be competitive, not a company increase profits.

      I know for a fact that companies that want cheap labor mfg job positions for candidates that have resumes that match, many times those candidates are told to reformat their resumes to match.

      It’s a con-game. There are a lot of great H1-B engineers, but there are a lot of great American engineers they are replacing for reasons already stated else where which have nothing to do with being able to do the job.

  11. “Why don’t these ‘brilliant’ people work to make their country a first world nation? If these people are so brilliant, how come their country is 3rd world? Generations of Americans have worked to build this country. Foreigners waltz right in to the US and hijack our jobs and send the money home.”

    Don’t agree with this…the so called 3rd world is the first world nation until the people from west came to LOOT and CARRY away all the resources and OCCUPY the nations entirely and making it/them 3rd world. And the “brilliant” people are way ahead in STEM from ancient history…please GOOGLE.

    We can understand your frustration, please stop blaming people from EAST……I think it is the pure supply and demand. One last thing……if you notice all the speeling bee winning kids in the last few years are from those so called 3rd nations.

        • What kind of a convoluted logic is this – British occupied India for 150 years, Americans are Whites from England, hence I will hate all of them while using the computers and cars that come from these countries and potentially working for companies from these countries or in their countries. Really ? A few Americans are descendants of Whites from the British isles, not all. Also these same descendants fought against the British tyranny to form an independent nation. There was a time to respond to British rule and that is not today. That time is gone, long gone. America and UK have been allies in recent times. And whose fault is it anyway if you are a weakling? Evolution is not kind towards the weak. Envy towards British is still understandable since the occupation is part of recent memory, but towards America, for British occupation ? That is sheer nonsense unless you are looking at everything through a ‘race’ prism in which case the world comprises of just a few groups. Nations make no sense to you.

      • I am white, but Italian, see, so if these people are so “educated”, why don’t they know thier history? Just another example of hate being imported on H1B by Microsoft and others at our expense.

      • OffshoreGuy

        “AFAIK the US didn’t occupy or loot India.”

        It’s sad that the brain drain that happens in India is not only in terms of people getting out of the country to work in foreign land, but also because of the outsource work. Indians while in India work for foreign companies. Does the Indian economy get any better by the money coming in from these foreign firms? May be, but at the same time, these same offshore guys will be eating at McDonalds, have Starbucks coffee, wear an American brand shirt, use Amway products. American corporations are getting back from the money they spend here, which in a way is also some kind of cost-saving.

        American middle class whiners would be happy to get their focus off this forum, once the Indian corporation will learn from their American kind. Or may be the South Koreans.

        America is the biggest consumer. So it’s in the interest of the world at large, if every American is employed.

    • Yes, we do blame people from East, once you get here, you only hire your kind and not Americans. I can take you to Microsoft, we both interview for same job,with a manger from India, so who will he hire?

      Me or you?

      It will be you…..

      You abuse our system and kindness, plus there are a lot of smart people from all over the world, so why only Indians? And in most cases have a better education.

    • So much nonsense. All kingdoms in the past carried on looting and plundering on their neighbors or distant lands at one time of another. If kingdoms in what is India today were overrun by foreign powers, that’s our fault not theirs. Winning spelling bee contests by rote is not the same as designing space ships ! And where did ‘google’ come from that you suggest others use to find out whatever ? You are exactly the kind of Indian that makes me more angry and ashamed than all the invaders combined – ignorant, prejudiced and not willing to learn, not very intelligent either. Unfortunately your ilk dominate the landscape. Gloat when possible for, complain otherwise. Hypocrite. FYI, I am Indian too. If you have any sense of self respect stop blaming the Muslims, British and whoever else. Blaming is for the weak.


  13. James Green1

    Looking at is enough to make you sick. 90% of the companies you see are indian companies. And those people are probably writing code for american corporations instead of hiring un-employed/underemployed Americans. Those companies that use H1b visa need to be hit with $50,000 fee(s) instead of $5000, and money needs to got to former CIS professionals so they can retrain in other area(s).

    • HI JAMES,

      • HitTheNAIL

        This comment comes late.
        It seems you are the only one who knows facts. H1B is not as big an issue as L1/L2. Actually most workers in USA were never sent on H1B because L1/L2 made them company dependent. This is not the case with H1B.
        Although the issuance of L1/L2 has decreased but there needs to be a cap per compay on L1/L2. Please compare stats. H1B holders must be very less than L1/L2.

        • Not sure about others, but I’ve only run across one L1 visa employee and about 25-30 H1B visa employees. There were dozens of others that I suspect were on one of these but I never got into those discussions. So it looks to me like H1B is still more prevalent.

    • @James Green: “Those companies that use H1b visa need to be hit with $50,000 fee(s) instead of $5000, and money needs to got to former CIS professionals so they can retrain in other areas”

      Retrain in other areas? Like the glue factory 🙂

      Seriously, after throwing you away at 50 to 55, what kind of career can you retrain for? You will never work long enough to be expert at the new field. Your going to start out at an entry level wage – at the time when you were expecting to be able to save more for retirement.

    • I think they should be forced to prove they can’t find a qualified candidate.

      Right now it’s way to easy to game. I have seen people be told to rewrite their resumes so that only their resume will qualify.

      It’s pretty ridiculous. Raise it to 100K, I mean if you can’t find someone to do the job that’s cheap and everyone else will be in the same situation, right?

      It’s a joke, they just want slave labor that they can abuse, period.

  14. I am a small business, I did need an H1B Visa, non IT, only to find out that the government does not like issuing them to small business. If Microsoft wants to spend 20K, why don’t they raise the wages for Americans that work there or better yet, create on the job training. Giving more money to the government is a joke.

    News Flash: Bill Gate and most of us do not have science degrees.

    Please write your congressmen about this attempt by Microsoft at abusing the H1B as it is now, fine them for most of these offshore may have a degree, but no experience, and not the same education.

    If these people are so smart, why don’t they stay where they are and work out their mess, but no, come here and use our infrastructure that we paid for over the years so Microsoft can have cheap labor, and small business are left out to dry. The whole H1B program is a joke and the government takes money from Microsoft (Jim McDermott) and supports them. I know, I talked with Jim McDermott’s office asking for help in my case and was told they could do nothing yet Microsoft is always a go.

    We need to not only write comments, we need to take action, Microsoft is hurting all of us and the same for Accenture and Deloitte, all large contractors with the government taking our work and bring it offshore only to return bug ridden code, half baked solutions, and leaving their US customers with substandard development.

    We need to speak up!!! But How?


      • At this time, an H1 visa is a huge problem.
        The only reason companies are seeking H1 visa, is because it is the closest think to “SLAVE” labor. If there was a way for companies to employ SLAVES, H1 people would be eliminated.
        Which has nothing to do with the lack of quality.

    • Jimmy Lozano

      Before to speak up… I need to ask you something…

      Why your small business need at worker H1B visa holder and NOT an IT american resident who live in USA Right Now…???, like a worker… of course…

      • I have a very specialized business, only a few in the world have the training or expereince I need…that is not the point, the point is we do not need IT H1B, we have many Americans that can do the work and MIcorosft abuses the program and so do the people from India.

  15. PrincetonJim

    I am a US Citizen and have applied to many jobs at Microsoft that I believe I am qualified if not over-qualified to perform. I have never heard back from them ever.
    Recently I was in a Windows Phone Program Mgr recruiting event and most participants in the web event spoke similarly.
    You can hire all the H1B you want Microsoft but and in that case sell your products only to the countries where the resources are sourced from!!

        • Do you know how to read? I never said I worked there, and $50 is still too low….it’s insulting. Hire Microsoft Consulting SErvices and they want $295 per hour and what do they provide as a resouce, an H1B…..

      • @ SAL M “$50 is still too low….it’s insulting.”.. I used to make $42.50/hour + benefits+vacation etc.. being an Application Developer and it was just fine with me. Now that I have been out of work for 8 months and struggling to find another job, I’d gladly take the $50/hour if that means getting a job and keeping labor “in house”.

        I’m an American… but I do think one of the reasons that companies go outsource is because American’s demand higher wages. Perhaps the tech industry needs an adjustment. With the new technologies that require different skills (since most programs and software use WSWG and auto fill, CodeSense etc) that we can’t demand such high pay..

        The consulting fees by MS are ridiculous.$295 as are others who charge $150/hour. I don’t see the reasoning behind such high costs. The only thing I can think of is MS’s way of recovering the costs of research and development and all the other levels along the chain..

        As the economic depression that we have experienced in the last couple of years continues, perhaps we need to adjust our expectations, and learn to live with less and more efficiently.

        • Listen to Reason

          If you want to ajust your expectations and live with less and lower your standard of living, move ot North Korea, China, or India, sounds like a vacation spot for you……

    • This is what I did

      I took my resume, reformatted it to exclude the longer work experience and change the graduation date and university also gave myself a different non-american sounding name.

      So two resumes, qualification wise they are identical, one has american name, longer work experience, that other foreign name / university and less experience making myself look younger.

      Guess what. Suddenly I was getting interview calls, changed it back, they all dried up. Anyone that tells me it’s because I don’t have the right qualifications (I have iOS, Android, Java, NoSQL) is full of it.

      This is blatant ageism and anti-american prejudice. There should be an investigation using similar tactics and if the companies are found guilty of gaming the system they should be banned from ever getting H1-B’s again, ever, period.

      • Ask me about changing my resumes to just my first initial. I am female. I can tell you the same. I can also tell you of being THE person qualified for the job and being turned down in favor of one of management’s golden boys. This isn’t just “cost” of workers. My prior employer (not MS) took a hit moving work to India (we figure it’s costs them 3x as many hours to do the job plus interfacing costs, resulting in at *least* a doubling of cost) – the reason for the move? Unable to sell to the Indians without a minimum of indian “content” in the product. Other governments are protectionist – ours is not. Ours is more worried about so-called diversity.

  16. Jimmy Lozano

    BY DOUGB | OCTOBER 16, 2012
    Sal M says: “I have a very specialized business, only a few in the world have the training or expereince I need”

    Choke…. more BS.

    You Know What DougB !!!, I was thinking the same about Sal M, but he has a truly point when he said:
    BY SAL M | OCTOBER 16, 2012
    I have a very specialized business, only a few in the world have the training or expereince I need…that is not the point, the point is we do not need IT H1B, we have many Americans that can do the work and MIcorosft abuses the program and so do the people from India.

    I want think that the first statement of this comment is totally BS, but the second statement is totally true.
    But the problem is: many persons said… If someone said a lie in the first place, what comes next is also a lie.

      • ConfusedCountry

        So tell us, what skill are you looking for that is so unique that no-one in America can do it? If what you are saying is true, tell us, maybe you’ll get lucky and one of these readers are just the person you are looking for. If you were honest, this would be your opportunity to reach a wide range of readers and maybe find your skill.

        ….but I bet you can’t even tell us what it is.

        • Please stay on topic, great questions but ask Microsoft. Believe me, you do not have the skills, this is again, a NON IT position….I have tried to find someone in USA, but instead will train them, but I need the instructor who has the skills as I purchased a business offshore and want to move it to USA…why can’t you stay on topic and pose these questions to the subject at hand, attacking or questioning me proves what?

          Microsoft is the issue, so maybe you work for Microsoft or maybe you are from India, but I do not work for Microsoft, and I am not from India. I requested a NON IT position that requires significant expertise around forgeries and document authentication that must stay with the business until I can get some training established, all fair and my point with Microsoft, why don’t they propose “on the job training, please read my original post.

          Again, you must be from Microsoft or India or both and do not understand the original post and want to redirect attention…..

          • ConfusedCountry

            Actually, I am an American Programmer with 35 years experience. I have lived and worked all over the US, but have only left the US twice in my life. All my vacations have always been here, –and no, I do not work and never will work for Microsoft. I think they represent everything that is wrong with the computer industry. The only thing you may be right about is that I may not have understood your original point. I’ll give you that.

      • It sounds to me like you have a project that you have trouble getting people in America with certain skills (and have never looked into foreign skills to handle it, although I’m not sure.)

        My experience with these “impossible” projects is that you are looking at it from the wrong perspective or too narrow a focus.

        For example, “I need someone who knows how to drive a 1929 model T with left-handed crank”? It would be hard to find someone qualified. However, if you think more broadly and say “I need a driver who has a broad enough range of knowledge to be able to figure out how to use a left-handed crank to drive my car” would probably get you a viable candidate and broaden your candidate pool.

        Similarly, when I see jobs like that, it makes me realize that it may just be time to upgrade to something newer.

        For example, if you’re looking for someone to work on a QuickBASIC project on DOS 3.3, the pool of candidates will be thin; instead, you may want to find someone who can interpret that and build you a DotNET version. Granted there will be an increased cost for this upgrade, but if it’s a mission-critical application, it will pay off in the long-run.

        So if you’re willing, I’d love to hear about the project and whether it’s something that can be solved with transferrable skills rather than specific, maybe obsolete skills.

        • Again assumptioons, I never said it was a “Project”, it is a business I purchased in another country that I want to move here in USA, unheard of really, I can hire two more resources (Americans) if I could, but unless I can get the resource I need for training, all that will not happen and the company stays offshore.

          Again, focus on the issue, Microsoft was the topic yet the focus is misdirected. Stay on topic please. Thank you.

  17. Imagine the uproar if we suddenly allowed H1B1s for lawyers. The ABA would have the the program shut down immediately if their hourly rates were under the same pressure as those of software engineers.


    Hey all Fellow Preachers,

    Don’t just hate Indian workers and Companies sending money to India for projects, please tell your Govt to stop investing money on wars and making destructive weapons and tell them to utilize it wisely on building infrastructure to create more jobs and training’s for Americans. If we(Indians) are not ready to come to US someone else will replace us and that will create the your Country much more vulnerable to terrorists and extremists which you fear the most. So stop hating us and think yourselves to create alternative options. Also don’t just believe that we in India are not using any products which is manufactured by an American company which takes the profit out of that business to US.

    • You need to see it from our perspective. This is human nature.
      Image that you are no longer allowed to work here in the US so you head home and you try to look for a job but they are only hiring Martians to do things that you could easily do. In addition, they work for less pay, spend very little of the earned money in your neighborhood so a lot of people there are unemployed with no ability to make money since the money goes out faster than it comes in.
      You wonder why the govt allows these Martians to get these jobs and it says it’s because the businesses indicated that nobody local can do the job.
      As you struggle to get money to pay the bills and buy food, you realize that your plight is getting worse and worse while the govt doesn’t listen to you and the businesses grow richer and richer.
      Inevitably, you get angry with the lack of control as “everyone” around you is succeeding except you, as you feel blocked every step of the way. But you shouldn’t get angry because it’s not your fault…what should you do to better compete against the Martians?


    Hello everyone,

    The endless arguments about H1B visas largely eclipse the much bigger threat posed by L1 visas. There is no limit on these, large multinational companies with offices in USA as well as other countries can bring in cheap labor using these visas in the name of “intra-company transfers” – they can pay them peanuts because there is no wage determination, LCA etc. And the greatest benefit for the company – the L1 workers are true slaves because the employees cannot transfer visas to another employer (which is possible in H1B). So you have guaranteed cheap labor that cannot quit.

    Also there is rampant fraud in the L1 system – the company will bring in someone saying they will manage a project and provide a fake org chart – but in reality this guy will be put in a hourly billing position, working directly for the client, billing anything from $60-150 per hour (depending on skills, position etc.) and will get paid only $30-35 per hour (60k-70k annual salary) max.

    In comparison, if this guy does the same job through a vendor who sponsors his H1B, he can earn upto 80% of his billing, i.e. anything from 90k-120k.

    So the fact is, H1B employees are not the real low-wage earners that pose a threat to the entire job market of IT professionals of this country. The real problem is the rampant abuse of the L1 program.

    • I did work for a huge US healthcare company recently and walked into their office and it was full of likely ‘L1’ foreign workers doing Oracle, Cognos, and Web development. You mean to tell me that US citizens can’t do these jobs?

    • Barry Rindner

      Amen to that. Companies in the past had training programs to bring new talent in. Not anymore. Easier and cheaper to go off-shore and bring in new labor. Currently, IT contractor labor market is flooded with cheap talent. In the past, every consultant gig that I would go to always had a heavy dose of H1-B visa employees who traditionally would work for a vastly lower hourly rate. My hourly rate that I billed at in 1987, for the most part, has become a number that one finds hard to duplicate in 2012. Thats 25 years ago. Demand has increased, but price hasn’t. Why? To me, it is obvious …

      • LookALike

        That is called being fair. In 1987 most of your products where sold here. Now those products are sold everywhere and your company makes profit. In 1987 probably your company was the only one making the product today world around there are several who makes it cheaply. So your company needs to make it cheap or no body will be there to use that in that price.

        Reason is much obvious now !!!!!

  20. I am on H1B visa . US is a wonderful nation who treated H1B Visa people fairly all these years. But I saw a problem , many of the graduates or post graduates in coming out of college ( American Nationals ) come out with an aim to be a leader they hardly spend an year or two at the ground level ( programming /actual development ) and change the job to move up to a manager level. It is good to raise up quickly .. but if every american national only want to manage people then who will do the programming or Application development ????

    Millions manufacturing jobs are going to China whihc dont need a specialized skills that an IT person needs ..Many middle class American’s used to occupy those jobs .. but now no more ..

    Where is Apple’s Iphone manufactured ? and Why ? .. It is because of Businesses wanting to be more profitable make use of cheap labour avialable out side.

    As far as India and US is concerned .. its like a road with 2 way traffic.. Indian companies are investing in IT business and coming to US and US companies are getting into India in all areas including retail businesses ( pepsi co , coca cola , Walmart name a few ) . I think we should understand that this due to result of globalization . There are benifiters and loosers on both sides.

    • The issue is not are you qualified, the issue is do we need you.

      The answer is no, we have plenty of out of work engineers that have more experience, produce higher quality, and are citizens.

      The only difference is that they cost more, that being the case America has the right to recoup the cost of supporting those out of work people. If MS hires 1 foreigner then they should be taxed to support the person they refused to hire with the same skills.

      I suspect the “we can’t find anyone” argument would dry up over night.

  21. Mike Douglas

    I guess people here forgetting and saying themselves American were immigrants at some point unless they are RED INDIAN!!!
    USA is made if immigrants and all the above free country and don’t you FORGET THAT!

    • ConfusedCountry

      Does this mean we shouldn’t have borders? Does this mean that I should pay my taxes and build roads for all in the world to enjoy? Should I pay taxes, build roads, build schools, and then train my replacement so he can enjoy the fruits of my labor? It’s a free country right? How about giving me your TV. All the materials come from the earth, and not an ounce of labor put into that TV was yours. What gives you more right to your TV than me. It’s a free country, and don’t forget it!

  22. All IT companies including Microsoft need genuine candidate who really has the experience. But many workers/students want to get placed in companies using different ways by faking resumes, increasing experiences and other unnecessary practices. Millions of H1B workers are working in different IT companies but how many of them are genuine. Likewise Microsoft has lot of workers who are not eligible to work. Those people took all genuine/american candidates jobs.

    Those IT companies should really do a strict background verification.

  23. Latest news from Bloomberg: U.S. Initial Jobless Claims Rose 46,000 Last Week to 388,000.

    And the story goes on and on…. Next year will be worst!

    Soon enough, our Universities won’t offer technical curriculums as no one here in the USA will want to study them or if they do only foreigners will study them for free as our government has programs for those students not to pay tuition fee and on top of that they give the students monetary help…and that is a fact and not fiction.

  24. Here in Central Florida a few years back, we had a case where workers were told that they were going to lose their jobs. Foreign workers were going to be brought in to replace them. The only choice the American workers had was: 1) Stick around long enough to train the foreign workers who were going to take their jobs, or, 2) Be fired immediately.

    I like the idea of charging for visas, but instead of a paltry $10,000, which is less than the difference in salaries between what they pay Americans and what they pay the imported outsourcers, why not make it $50,000 – per year. At that rate, if the companies really can’t find American workers, they can still get “guest” workers. Instead of $5 billion it would generate $76 billion, and instead of being lied to and screwed over by government, government would be serving the interests of the American People.

    • Suzie Hsu

      Agree to raise the fee to hire the H1-B.

      But not sure if this would help.

      In a global company, a lot of the employee were asked to stay about a few months to transition their work to TCS Indian workers. We have the skill sets but was forced to train the foreign workers otherwise we will loose our jobs right away. After transition over, we all got laid off.

      The company thinks they can save the cost by using TCS contractors instead of hiring US employees or hire the US contractors.

    • 100K would be better, everyone would then be in the same boat. Sure it would cost you more to run your company but every other company would be in the same boat.

      I think that probably, and suddenly, they would be able to find all of those US workers they now ignore.

  25. If it is TRUE that a good worker adds 1-2 MILLION to a company, then $100k should be NOTHING to charge for an H1B. And that amount should be PER YEAR – not a one time charge.

    I have personally been the target of AGE discrimination. I knew the person who got the job over me and he had half the education (at best) and less than 10% of the knowledge. It was literally an example of a company going for the LOWEST WAGE possible, however, technically, what they did should have been illegal – good luck with that.

    I made sure my two boys didn’t go into IT because of it.

    I think the previous poster who said we should open up H1B’s for LAWYERS had a great idea. Maybe then I could afford to pay a boatload of lawyers and sue these giant corporation!

    • I agreed!
      We have 300+ people in this country and the best universities in the world, and you say we NEED more education and/or don’t have the skill required by our U.S. employer? You mean US employers are saying that 3rd world countries have high tech skill workers that we lack? BUT we are the leader of the world! We are not 3rd world or even 2nd world. This all sounded like employers are looking to bring in cheap labor.

  26. first we need to fix higher education costs. no one is going to pay forty thousand dollars in tuition fees only to be able to make thirty five thousand a year after graduation. the people we are asked to compete against have no tuition cost. the companies need to outline what their needs are so the right people will know to apply for the position

    • This is a joke right?
      We have 300+ people in this country and the best universities in the world, and you say we NEED more education and/or don’t have the skill required by our U.S. employer? You mean US employers are saying that 3rd world countries have high tech skill workers that we lack? BUT we are the leader of the world! We are not 3rd world or even 2nd world. This all sounded like employers are looking to bring in cheap labor.

      • Nope, not a joke. And almost every question you asked can be answered with a “yes”. You seem to be living under the illusion that nothing is done correctly in 3rd world countries. Their education system might not be the very best, but many of the students are brilliant. And I repeat here what John has said – just because college education is so insanely expensive here, do you really believe it’s the best? Students in 3rd world countries have extremely inexpensive college education, which enables the good students to learn more on their own. Specially, if it’s computer science and coding, all you need is a computer with internet and sometimes good books, both of which are available in plenty there. And it’s pitifully ignorant of you to say that this is an attempt to bring in “cheap labor”. Do not confuse H1Bs with outsourcing. Outsourced jobs go to 3rd world countries – the employees in those countries work there, and get paid their low hourly rates. H1B employees get as much salary as an American would get. Add to it the cost to sponsor an H1B visa, and it actually costs the company more to hire an H1B candidate.

      • thinktank

        Pissoff your comments are just downright infuriating. Having the schools has nothing to do with having the number of american students. Most of the good universities for higher educations get filled by International students. Why is that so? Because the students from the “3rd world countries” that you talk off somehow manage to afford this education.How is that so? Because the students from India and China have understood the value of education right since childhood and have worked hard towards getting into this prestigious schools. I would anyday consider an American as worth as me for my role. Provided they are enough in number which is not the case. This blindsight that you live in calling yourselves a world leader is nothing but being ignorant about the world.

        • “Because the students from India and China have understood the value of education right since childhood and have worked hard towards getting into this prestigious schools.”

          What a self serving line of crap!

        • Excuse me, this is an example of why we need ot hrie Americxans so we are not insulted by teh have nots.

          Bill Gates, American
          Henry Ford, American
          Fermi, Italian American
          Steve Jobs, American
          Larry Ellison, American
          Amazon, eBay, Google, and so on, AMERICAN, all educated here.

          I could go on and on, but note, not one H1B is on that list.

      • LookALike

        Go look and the rolls of those University. See how many of us are there. Half of them are from abroad. Most among us even don’t qualify 😛 Your comments are dead on their arrival itself !!!

        • From my experience, the education provided in India at a University equates to a high school education here. Just my observation, you really cannot compare University education here to India, not ths same.

          One company hired an “Architect” from India, what a disaster. A PM withoput technical training had to step in and complete the holes left by this Indian resource. When asked what he know about and Microsoft product, he told us Microsoft products were “crap”, and this is what Microsoft hires?

          They fired him shortly after.

      • LookALike

        Just look for the companies bought by the men you had listed above. What is Hotmail ? who founded it ? Intel .. Do you have any idea who designed some of the greatest chips Intel ever made ??

        By the way someone among you where claiming all the companies above are doing bad while recruiting. But now you yourself are proud now about these people and companies.

        Double standards should have some limit. You didn’t get a job. So you are angry. That is the fact !!!

    • I was at a Major University where they routinely advertised to students they would start in the IT business at around 40K. However their best paid employee at the time was only making about 32k. I was offered a permanent position to convert from Contract and could not afford the cut in pay. They should offer a more realistic assessment of future earnings.

  27. Vidur Chengappa

    H1B’s stealing jobs is absolute bullcrap… The fact is that Americans cannot fill the jobs that H1B’s are granted for. Take it from an IT recruiter who cannot recruit for H1B jobs because the companies don’t want to look into that and feel its too expensive. They try to hire Americans first and foremost but if there aren’t any good Java or .Net developers to fill the demand what else can they do? 10000 is a massive sum for each person and in most cases companies don’t hire because of this.

    • So what should we be selling the American IT worker out for. How much is replacing an American worth? The simple facts are that offshore options have never provided a suitable replacement in terms of data security or processing efficiency. Simply Cheaper in the short term. Turns out to be Vastly more expensive to repair the theft and damage done by offshore Programmers. That is finally dawning on most US Corporations.

      • thinktank

        First of all, I am tired of this comment “American companies hiring cheap labor: repeating all the time. Why would you think that the H1B employee gets any lesser wages than an American? An H1b hiring process goes through a LCA approval which determines what the pay needs to be according to the job description. All international employees need to be paid upto their qualifications to even get the H1B visa approved. I am pretty sure that every employee on a H1B visa gets paid pretty well if not the best.

        American was considered a and of great opportunities and it is a country found on the basis of immigrants. The founding fathers were immigrants for petes sake. Just that 300 years ago it was not considered a big deal while as today americans are whinning about it due to unemployment. Every person should have a right to pursue his dreams in whichever country he wants. What is an American citizen exactly… just be being born here does not mean that you are a true american. All the international workers who are getting this jobs will some or the other day become citizens of American if they plan to stay here forever…it is nothing but a personal choice… Does that even relate to an American being employees or an Employed becomming an American… Just a food for thought!

        • ConfusedCountry

          Well, actually I have not met any H1-B’s making my rate, and even worse are the L1’s. I worked with a bunch of L1 programmers who were making about $10 an hour, had their rent paid, were given meals 3 times a day during the week, and meals twice a day on weekends. In they end, they still had money to send back to India since all expenses were paid.

          As far as this country being built on Immigrants, yes it is true, but does that mean we shouldn’t have borders? Does this mean that you have just as much right to our country as we do? Who built all our schools, and paid all the taxes to build our roads?

          Each time I am forced to train my replacement, this is what happens. I spent my life paying taxes, building schools, and building roads and developing my career, then someone from India can come over here and say wow, thanks for building me all these nice roads and schools, and creating such wonderful industries for me. Just move over and hand me your job and we’ll be all set to go. Thanks–and please don’t complain. Even though you paid for all of this, remember I’m an immigrant too and have just as much right to your country as you do!

          Sorry, that argument doesn’t work for me. Yes, we are a nation of immigrants, but no, all that we created we did not create for you.

          • I agree, and why only immigrants from India? Because they hire their own, they take advantage of American hospitality. See if a company in India will hire you. How many Americans work for TATA Consulting? There are talentled people from all over the world and immigrants in the past built this country, they did not take from it.

        • “Every person should have a right to pursue his dreams in whichever country he wants. What is an American citizen exactly… just be being born here does not mean that you are a true american.”

          Are you sure you’re a programmer? This is the some of the most twisted logic I’ve read.

          Country’s exist for a purpose. The purpose is to protect and provide an infrastructure for it’s citizens. Right now we are in a depression. The U6 unemployment is over 16%. It is estimated that 25% of the American people are unemployed, underemployed, or have given up looking for work.

          If you noticed today the US budget for welfare is over $1 trillion dollars a year. We are suffering.

          Our first responsibility should be toward natural born American citizens. When they have decent paying jobs – then we can invite foreigners into our country.

          Feel free to persue your dreams in your own country – not mine!

      • thinktank

        @Doug B… Firstly I have not mentioned anywhere that I am a programmer… that just shows how ignorant you are with everything. Natural born is a priviledge that came to you only because your forefathers were here as immigrants some 50-100 years back. We are just at the same place where they were back then.(I totally understand how the Native americans must have felt then as I guess you are going thought that phase right now) I might not be a natural born citizen but my future generations surely will once I become a citizen. So will that add me to your statistics of “citizens who are employed”? Does that decrease the unemployment percentage? If that is the case then whats wrong with an H1 worker eventually becoming a citizens… It jus just going to add to the economy…I will be paying equal taxes as you so I deserve equal priviledges too. Corporations are generally started by a single indivisual and not a country..That indivisuals citizenship is really not the point. Companies like Microsoft, Amazon, Cisco, Ebay, Target( you name it) all have huge regional HQs in India and China. These are global companies and it really dosnt matter where they got started. The jobs are equally global… Sometimes they will just hire for the India office or otherwise they will get you an H1 if the requirements are more in US which is called on site.

        If an H1B visa holder in the US can manage and work at a certain salary then an American should have no problem managing the same. If they are going to ask for more the employer is bound to hire the one whose requirements are lower. The whole idea that the H1B employee is low quality is just a load of crap. Most of the MNCs have employees from abroad who are performing excellent and are extremly productive. Its just that their demands are less than an American in respect to salary. I am not sure that is a case with all the employees on H1b, there might be some shitty employees on H1 but then who wouldnt find an American who dosnt do his job right. I have seen many in all my years of work in the US.

        If you go and check out all the startups in the Silicon Valley, you will find many of the companies started by Immigrants or their second generation.

        Google ( Sergey Brin, Russia)
        Intel- (Andrew Grive, Budapest)
        Yahoo- (Jerry Yang, Taiwan)
        Ebay – (Perrie, Iran)
        Youtube- (Jawed Karim, E Germany)
        Hotmail- ( Sabeer Bhatia, India)
        Sun Microsystems- (Vinod Khosla, India)
        Pradeep Sindhu – (Juniper Networks, India)

        This is just a small list of immigrants who started companies in the US and believe me the list is far much bigger than this. This wouldnt have happened in case they never came here on a H1B visa that you guys hate so much.
        Its just pure logic and the corporates are smart enough to understand what is right for their business. They are not here to open a goodwill store for the so called NATURAL BORN AMERICANS. Though most of the big IT companies started in the US only because its a great environment to start a business. These companies are global now and they operate from around the world.

        I respect my country very much do there is no reason to it a Third World Country. We have the best education which does not cost as much as $40-50K/year. I came to the US in search for a better work opportunity and I also fell in love with its culture and poeple…it is only fair if I want to stay here for longer and make a career..I am sure this is also the case with many others who come here on work visas.

        Peace out..

        • Listen to Reason

          H1B is low quality, that is a fact, I have yet to see it otherwise. It takes 3-4 on average to do that same work, and then you will most likely have to redo it later.

          No way do you have the same education for cheaper, because it is not the same education, it can’t be. And who says you need an education to be a programmer or anything else? Bill Gates doesn;t have a complete education, nor did DaVinci and so on.

          If you want a better life, work on getting your home country better, watering down our culture is not the solution, benefits you maybe, but no one else.

        • “Came here 50-100 years back” — Really??? Not sure who you’ve been speaking to my friend, but my ancestors came to Virginia during the English Civil War, the son of an MP for Co. Dorchester, Eng. Another was held an MA from Cambridge and was pastor of a church that Geo. Washington’s grandparents attended. I have 8 direct line ancestors in the Revolutionary War, 4 of whom were officers. These men threw out the tyrant and build up their own country. And you compare yourself to them? Really??? You drop in one day and say “I built this!” –Really??? And as for India, I have another English ancestor whose grave says he was a member of the East India Company. Ahhh, the good old days!

        • ConfusedCountry


          You are ignoring one important point. If you were in India watching all of your jobs being shipped to America and all of your friends unemployed, would you still say the same thing? If you studied programming in India and still couldn’t find a Job because Americans were coming over and taking all of your remaining jobs that weren’t outsourced, would you still be writing the same letter?

          You said “Natural born is a priviledge that came to you only because your forefathers “. Do you really believe that the people of India would put up with as much of this kind of abuse as we have had to over here? or would laws have been enacted very quickly in India to prevent the widespread abuse of the Indian people by Americans coming over on visas, having Indians train their replacements, and then shipping the jobs overseas to America and then firing all those who remained in India.

          How would you feel as your house was foreclosed, and you had to move out of your house while the I came over and took your job? You may have had to spend a little time training me, but this is a global economy remember? Would you polish the floors of your kitchen for me so your house could be nice and fresh for me to move in? Would you welcome me as your new “guests” to your country?

          How about if I thanked your forefathers for building me such a nice country. Just because you were born in India shouldn’t give you any special privileges, right? Your parents build all this for me and my family too, didn’t they? Don’t complain while you teach me your job, just look at all the examples of many Americans who came to India took Indian jobs and created successful companies. Doesn’t that make it better? Doesn’t that make you feel better about handing your job over to me? — after all, an iPod might have cost a bit more in India if I didn’t take your job!

          I think that if the roles were reverse, you would realize that you don’t believe a word of what you just wrote, do you?

          • Listen to Reason

            Thank you for the excellent repsonse. India people have been in the blog, it is real clear how they rationalize, now we need to band together and change this abuse of our hosipitality, our rights, our country!!!!

            I can tell you all a great story about Microsoft and India that never hit the news because it was so hush hush, but if you knew how the Indian Government holds Microsoft hostage and how they treat us as Americans, you would put your boots on and kick this abuse out.

            Microsoft is forced to use H1B for India to get into their market, it is a long tern strategy at the expense of America and Americans.

            This complete blog is really clear

        • @thinktank: “that just shows how ignorant you are with everything.”

          Why should I argue with you? It’s my country. A country exists firstly to protect and support it’s citizens. I feel like I’m having to explain why I don’t like being robbed. It is not your right to come to our country. Notice Germany and Japan don’t put up with this crap.

          thinktank : “I respect my country very much do there is no reason to it a Third World Country. We have the best education”

          For the life of me – why don’t you stay there and make it even better, what can’t you do in India that you can do here?

          The bottom line is that there are 23 million unemployed people in the US. We don’t need additional labor. Maybe when unemployment is 3%.

      • thinktank

        @Listen to Reason… I dont understand where you get this statistics from which proves that an H1B is low quality. No wonder that is the reason that the Director in my company is Indian even though its an American MNC run at the top by Americans. I guess you are stuck up on all the developer/programmer jobs which might have some low quality workers but let me remind you that H1B is not only for that. You will see employees working as Doctors, Architects, Physio Therapists. I myself work on a role where I have never have to touch any code ever.

        Who says education is required? I guess most of these companies where you want to get hired… Microsoft/Google/Amazon wont even consider you with a Graduate degree.. and I am pretty sure you are no Prodigy Enterprenuer who are the only second to get hired by the TOP MNCs.

        Why would you just consider the the education is not the same level? Is it just your ignorance which allows you to do so? If the education would have been below par there was no way I would have got an admit in one of the best graduate schools in the US. Why do you think most of the Graduate students in the US are foreigners? Being in such a global world today I cannot believe that you are taking out points in behalf of nationalism. Its about time to understand that a person might not be working or following his dreams in the country that he was born in. People are going to places where they like and not restricting to stay back in one place. America has always been considered a land of great opportunity and I still believe in that statement.

        @SAR64 — With all due respect you do not really represent the USAs demographics. Your forefathers might have been here longer than others and that does not really differentiate things. Even after the civil war there were many who flocked in numbers to the USA for a better future. You seem to have having a lot of ancestory from around the world… May be you also have 1/16th Gengiz Khan in you for all I care. That really dosnt change things on when your forefathers came here compared to others. I have cousins in the US who are in their 3rd generation here. Its just depends on where in history did you really immigrate.

        • @thinktank: “I guess you are stuck up on all the developer/programmer jobs which might have some low quality workers but let me remind you that H1B is not only for that. You will see employees working as Doctors, Architects, Physio Therapists.”

          I guess these other professionals must service all the H1-B’s – cause I sure won’t use their services – avoid them like the plague.

          @thinktank: “Its about time to understand that a person might not be working or following his dreams in the country that he was born in.”

          This is really twisted, a demand. You’re trying to force yourself into our country.
          @thinktank: “Being in such a global world today I cannot believe that you are taking out points in behalf of nationalism.”

          I’m tired of hearing the word ‘global’. You are attempting to claim you are just like a US citizen, because we were all immigrants. Well everyone is an immigrant. Even the American Indians – they came across the Bearing Strait. But in the real world there are countries with borders and citizens. Which you are not one of, and no amount of twisted logic on your part is going to make you equal to me in terms of citizenship.

      • thinktank

        @Doug_B — I understand your pain in all this and what you say makes sense for your perspective. Also in a certain way there is a confusion regarding outsourcing as compared to H1B. Outsourcing is a work of the devil wheere cheap labor in India and China gets exploited in a certain way because you dont have to pay that much. I can explain how the calculation goes (I got this from an American in HR who does a lot of oursourcing)

        Lets say you pay a developer $50/Hr in the US. At this same cost you can probably hire 5 developers in India as the currenly is soo majorly apart. Considering you have 2 shitty employees within those 5. You might get lucky in having 3 good employees in the same team. This increases productivity to 300%. Lets call a huge margin of error and this can come to around 250% increase in productivity. In the worst case scenario I do not feel that one regular American developer can match 3 average indian developers in productivity.

        Now when you consider an H1 employee…Firstly, most of them are cream of the crop from one of the top notch schools in the US. Harvard, MIT, Stanford, Uni of Minnesota, Duke you name it. These students are directly recruited from their schools to work in the best of companies. They are highly motivated and extremly professional employees. The companies will also pay them a fat check to keep them in the company. Most of these employees/students might have worked in their home country but were not getting the right exposure or recognition back home. They came to the US in search for the exact opportunity which they not. Isnt it only fair to give them the chance? They might be the future of the country and in this case US gets benefited from their skill set and not the home country. In a way countries like India and China are facing a huge brian drain only becuase they cannot provide the indivisual with the quality for living. This is the sole reason many brilliant minds from india will leave the country in search of better opportunities.

        I am not sure if MS should makes a point in increasing the H1B quota from where it is now but it is also the fact that any person should not be curtailed from his/her deserving opportunity.

        Though it looks really nice form the outside, getting a job where the company is ready to sponsor your H1b is a whole different battle altogether that many Americans dont realize. To get the visa is like an acheivement as many companies will avoid getting into this hassle. If you leave companies like MS aside it is not really that simple.

        • @thinktank… Your analysis has been refuted by a new study that I mentioned in a comment in this post… I outlined an ROI analysis on outsourced workers resulting in higher overall costs for companies.. the article (the link to it is in the post toward the top of this list). I mentioned in the comment supports this. Those 5 low cost developers do not create greater productivity… it is the reason many companies are bringing jobs back to the states.. To your comment: “Now when you consider an H1 employee…Firstly, most of them are cream of the crop from one of the top notch schools in the US. Harvard, MIT, Stanford, Uni of Minnesota, Duke..” This is also a big issue in that most of those kids are receiving full-ride that are not awarded to US kids.

          Yes there is a gap in education and unfortunately governments both in the US and in India are cutting off their own arms in this respect. India is cutting off their arms because the government fails to provide opportunities for its own people.. ranking out of 183 countries 132 overall in doing business and 181 in construction permits- preventing development.And the US is cutting off their own arms by not fostering education for its own people and giving much needed opportunities to people with Naresh Patel and Xi Wan as their name. One of the other posters in this list ran a little test by posting the exact same resume with different names and the name that had a foreign sound to it received a much greater number of calls for interviews.

          With that said, their is an ill conceived perception that foreign nationals are better. And like other posts in this group have stated, it’s not that Americans are against foreigners; this country is built on them (I am a naturalized US citizen originating from Budapest Hungary), but rather during such high unemployment, the government and companies should give preferential treatment to enhancing the well being of its citizens, because it is those citizens that will be buying cars, groceries, clothes electronics etc.. If the economy is to recover, people in the US need to be employed and when they see their jobs going to “hired help”, it’s disheartening and we feel betrayed. If unemployment was low, then this topic would not be an issue. Perhaps scaling back on foreign hires might be more beneficial to the morale of the country and to its economy. This is especially true when a 40’s-50’s worker is asked to train their younger and foreign replacement simply because they are less expensive. — Walmart have been doing this for years. Cutting hours to have 85% of their workforce being part time (no benefits) and bringing 22 years olds to replace great 50 year olds simply to give the perception that they are “vibrant and fresh”.

          But Americans also need to change their mentality and accept the fact that the US has been sliding in education. Baby boomers relished in their success, giving their kids everything they wanted – every gadget and name brand clothing, but failed to instill the vehement drive for education and hard work that they received from their parents, replacing reality TV shows and xbox/wii for reading and studying.

          There will be a shortage of 215,000 tech jobs by 2018. For those parents with teenage kids, there is an opportunity to be a part of something greater, and the jobs will be there (especially if the technology is coupled with life sciences and green techs — “Think smart grid” and electric cars, smart homes, digital newspapers, hand-held medical devises that can diagnose in the field and link back to a patients history or be available for reviews by doctors in different parts of the world -creating faster response times to epidemics.) There is an opportunity for great innovation similar to what was seen after the Great Depression in the 30’s..

      • thinktank

        @Doug_B— you seem really disgruntled with life thanks to unemployment maybe.

        Funny that you mention this “Which you are not one of, and no amount of twisted logic on your part is going to make you equal to me in terms of citizenship.” I am going to love proving you wrong… Please leave me your email address and I will send you a picture the day I get my citizenship and be a right equal. We will talk then maybe? Thankfully I am on a day off so I would not waste any more time on this and you can stay as disgruntled as you want. It was nice talking to you. Over and Out!!

    • Funny how all the foreigners on the site don’t agree

      I have hired a lot of people in my time and if you have been doing this for a long time you know that new technologies are almost a zero barrier for people with 10+ years of development experience, YAL (yet another language) is easy to overcome.

      To move from C++ to C# or Java is almost instantaneous, the differences can be worked out in a matter of weeks and the same engineer that is writing great code in C++ will be writing great code in C#, Java, Objective C in short order.

      Other technologies are a bit harder to get up to expert speed on, but it’s doable and the dirty little secret is that the wage slaves they are hiring are not experts either, they have just usually toyed with it.

      I have yet to see a newly minted student be useful in less than 3 months, and 6 is typical, any decent engineer could transition in the same time, and more likely less.

      Cheap, easy to manipulate, easy to hang on to, easy to dispose of, these are the criteria that larger companies are looking for. Even 10K is trivial when compared to the economic gains made by replacing skilled workers with foreign wage slaves.

        • ConfusedCountry

          No there is another difference. Our fore fathers weren’t paid to come here. They had courage and came at their own risk. They really wanted to come here and build a life here. How many H1-B workers would give up everything and come here at all risk just to be an American? Comparing H1-
          B workers are not the same as immigrants from the past. If not for the H1-B, very few would even be here. Do you really believe they want to be Americans badly enough to dig ditches?

          In fact, no matter how you feel about illegal immigration, the Mexicans come here and cross the border with all the risk and will dig ditches and pick fruit just to be an American. These people have more in common with our fore fathers than H1-B workers. How many H1-B’s would enlist in our military just to gain citizenship? If the answer is nearly ZERO, then stop calling them immigrants, they are mercenaries and nothing more.

    • Since you are an IT recruiter, it is understandable why you would support the H1B.. The reality of H1B, if they are going through a desi firm or sponsor (not direct hire — but through a contracting firm) is that while the employee gets $40/hour.. the contracting company bills the client $70/hour making a very nice profit for recruiters.. That is why there are so many tech recruiters out there. They have abused the H1B system for quite some time. For the “client” it’s not about having a cheaper employee, it’s about having no risk hiring. The H1B can’t leave because they are under contract and they would have to repay the “perks” that their recruiter gave them to lure them here (when the H1B first comes to the states, they get free housing, meals, computers and cell phone while they wait for a placement). The client can simply cancel the contractor if they don’t like him/her without having to pay unemployment benefits, health care etc (most of the time the recruiting firm or H1B sponsor firm offers this.) The recruiter throws an H1B employee to the client and forgets about them.. but that 1 year contract is raking in the profits.

      New regulations have been passed that no longer allow contracting companies to claim H1B employees for tax benefits if they don’t work on-site, meaning that the employee’s manager is the client… and that in order to claim any benefits, H1B sponsor companies must now have daily contact with the worker.. This has sent the firms raging as it cuts into their cash-cow profits. Which is a good thing.. maybe there will be more responsible use of H1B to support the original law that said “H1B should only be used if all efforts to hire local have been exhausted”.

  28. Having had H1B visa holders as a part of my staff for 20 years. I can assure everyone that the corporate understanding is that it is an expense mitigation technique, and only that. There are NO positions, anywhere, held by an H1B visa holder for which an equally qualified U.S. citizen cannot be found. H1B visa holders are necessarily passive in the workplace. They do not make demands, they do not seek employment elsewhere, they accept whatever compensation is offered. They are the indentured servants of our time.

  29. >UC-Davis Computer Science Professor Norm Matloff believes the bigger issue is ageism … he questioned why Microsoft doesn’t reduce the number of open positions by hiring back workers it laid off in the last couple of years

    Damn right there is no shortage of IT people here, ready to work. The unemployment rate in Silicon Valley and other IT hubs is just as bad as everywhere else. The companies know it, so they imagine somehow this situation will enable them to find “purple-polka-dotted unicorns” to fill offensively-over-specified job reqs, rather than the old way of “hire for attitude, train for aptitude.”

    Then they whine that they can’t find talent to fill the jobs, rather than hire people who are already skilled in IT… but not in the “exact” skills that they need … and simply cross-train them. How much does it cost to train “locals” rather than sponsor H1B or L-1 visas and import workers (with relo costs, etc)?

    AHA… now we get into the REAL motives. The visa holders are essentially wage slaves to their sponsors. Often they are quite young and single, so they are spending ridiculous hours at the office [ask me how I know this to be true] when older (local, more-experienced) workers who have families need to leave the office at the end of the day.

    Nobody really expects to cross-train (say) construction workers into Java programmers. But what about experienced IT people who are sidelined even AFTER they get training classes to update their skills…? … because they don’t have “10 years in [pick the subject]”, and for lower-ranked jobs they are obviously discriminated against as “over-qualified” (ie, too old; not like the kids who have no families and work for low wages and Red Bull).

    It’s clear Microsoft (and MANY others) are *very* cynically abusing the system.

    • Mr. banks

      Damn right , I’ve been in this position more than once . I went back to school for more and newer skills . (javascript,Server 2008 , PHP, Web 2.0 . But No tech companies in the Valley would hire a 59 year old . i have a vast knowledge of the Valley . I started with IBM and have been with many corporations who we baby-boomers have brought to light .WHO YOU THINK MADE APPLE , INTEL , IBM , AMD , NATIONAL SEMICONDUCTOR .just to name a few . NOW WE ARE FORGOTTEN AND WRITTEN OFF AS OLD TECH , NO USE ,and they hire young at cheaper wages . Get rid of the high paying veterans , get them to train new workers , them release them. (usually by early retirement or forced out .I helped build this Valley from the early seventies .

      • ConfusedCountry

        I am 56 and can ditto most of what you have said, but there is another point I want to make. We came from a generation before open source. Back then, if you told a team of programmers to build a system and said “…but no open source will be allowed”, they would just look at you like you were crazy and say “What is open source” and would go about their business and build a complete system.

        Today, if you took the average programming team and asked them to build a system and said “…but no open source will be allowed”, they would stand there in disbelief and wouldn’t know where to begin. We may have more programmers today, but the industry has become so dumbed down it is incredible.

        I recently read that open source contributions are on the decline. My gut feeling is that is is the baby boomers and people over 40 who are the ones doing the innovative work that allows the next generation of dumbed down programmers to do their “innovative” work.

        Once the baby boomers are gone, I really wonder how all these H1-B’s who only know how to “use” software (the work of other high skilled programmers”) to do their own jobs will be able to continue.

        I think in a way this may explain the fact that there is both so many programmers and there is also skills shortage. Nobody is left who can actually write code without first finding something to download and use.

        Us baby boomers were the last generation of programmers who truly knew how to write code. I’m just not seeing that quality any more.

        I am sure I might get flamed for this, but before you flame me, explain how you would have done your last project if all you had was the JVM and an operating system and database but nothing more. We didn’t have much more than that back in the day, and we did it all.

        The future reminds me of a Star Trek episode where the inhabitants of a planet inherited incredible computers from their parents but didn’t know how it worked. Eventually Captain Kirk (of course) had to turn the computers off to save the Enterprise, and the entire planet was put back into the Stone Age.

        I realize I am over dramatizing a bit, but I do see the industry dumbing down at an alarming rate.

        Soon all the baby boomers will be gone, and the skills shortage will be rampant. I believe that this is exactly what is happening. Plenty of programmers, but very few who can actually program.

        …even worse, we now have management who has never written a program from scratch and wouldn’t even know how to hire the right person even if they knocked on the door 100 times.

        We are headed for interesting times.

        –OK, I said my piece, so let the flames begin! 🙂

        • “Us baby boomers were the last generation of programmers who truly knew how to write code.”


          Nobody would be able to write many of todays ‘languages’ without Google. Most programmers now spend more of their time Googling for how to do whatever, than they do writing the program.

          I’ve written systems in BAL, ISAM, and a text editor – they did the same thing in 1971, with the same results, as what we do with 5 gig libraries of objects.

      • ConfusedCountry


        I’m agreeing again. In our day, we spent the day programming and designing. Today we spend most of our day Google-ing for the the snippet of code or XML we need to find to get our job done. (aka finding somebody else’s work).

        If I could go back in time just 20 years I’d tell the programmers I have good news and bad news about the future. The good news is that the computers will even be better and faster than your wildest imaginations. The bad news is you won’t be able to render a form on the screen that only has name, address, city, state, zip and an “enter” button without needing a server that is 1000 times bigger than any computer in existence today.

        If I could could steal just one Server out of the hundreds off the rack, and send it back 20 years. They could run a small country with that one server, and deliver the project with fewer people. I am astounded at how many programmers it takes to get anything done today!

        –Oh, and while I am at it, this whole concept of having a team stand around in circles like a bunch of Kindergartners doing show and tell (aka Scrum) is the icing on the stupid cake. We used to get our assignments, and did our work. We didn’t need to all hold hands romper room style to get through our day. Talk about dumbing down !

        • I can’t believe what you have to do for a simple data entry screen.

          If everyone is so interested in keeping costs down why all the GUI and why the constant thrashing change? It’s my expeience the longer you do something the more adept, more accurately you do it.

      • LookALike

        We are 50+ and most of my friends are of the same age working in these type of companies. Your problem is not universal. I get why they didn’t employ you. I can get that from your comment, I can feel the pulse of your attitude. 😛

    • This is correct.

      H1-B’s are cheaper, more malleable, can’t be easily poached from other companies, and easier to dispose of if they become a problem.

      The ageism thing is real, when I restricted my resume to make it look like I was about 30 I got a lot of calls, when I put in the other experience that showed my age it wen’t dead, almost over night.

      There is no shortage of workers, that is complete and utter BS!

      • Liberman

        Yes that type of workforce is what we need for doing non critical thing. This make us competitive. What is wrong in that. If somebody else does it cheaper our companies should use them. Whats wrong in it. If you were running that business don’t say you will not do that. Companies are for making profits and not for enriching employees life. They can support the employees living they are doing it. if your expectation from world is different , you are in wrong place.

        • Listen to Reason

          Who says it is cheaper, you get what you pay for…really not worth have H1B or offshore, it costs more in the long run. We have to pay unemplyment to Americans so you can work? how is that cheaper? And yes, it is wrong!!!! Then we have to redo that work anyway because it was poor to begin with, qulaity lacking.

        • “Yes that type of workforce is what we need for doing non critical thing. This make us competitive. What is wrong in that. If somebody else does it cheaper our companies should use them. Whats wrong in it. If you were running that business don’t say you will not do that. Companies are for making profits and not for enriching employees life. They can support the employees living they are doing it. if your expectation from world is different , you are in wrong place.”

          The above is a good example of wrong thinking. It’s really not about the best and the brightest. There are many good people, many intelligent people, whom, if called upon, can generate many good ideas.

          We are a society. Young to old. There are many good components to each age / experience level. To have business pratices where you ‘discard’ people in their prime, sucessful in their industry, just because they don’t know ‘xyz’, which would take a couple of months to acquire, is self destructive to the society.

          By throwing away people over 50, you are killing the mentors. Instead of helping younger people, the over 50 will now say “stay away from that”.

      • Liberman

        @Dougb : The above view you had aired is a good example of how not to think just for short term personal benefit. I am not saying we should throw people over 50. But what I am saying is age is not a criteria for these type of jobs.

        Think about the different tech companies we have in silicon valley. Just count the number of foreigners contributing and boosting the American Economy. You cant deny the facts. By the way as you speak most of them are becoming Americans what is wrong in that.

        • @Liberman: “Think about the different tech companies we have in silicon valley. Just count the number of foreigners contributing and boosting the American Economy.”

          Yeah, consider the American Economy: 23 million unemployed people. 50 million on food stamps, 3.1 million added to the SS disability cause they can’t get jobs. We have the lowest workforce participation rate ever – 62%. Only 62% of the working age people are employed!

          The housing market has been decimated, and our GDP is growing at a measly 1.3%.

          Let’s take care of ourselves first. If necessary give the STEM person a little on the job training ( as they used to do ) , and stop thinking that you need the perfect person.

  30. Microsoft is only looking to hire people at wages that will allow no one to buy their products. Translation, not Americans. Do you mean to tell me that Microsoft cannot hire any Americans to fill their 6000 open positions ? Folks this is simply an out and out lie from the Microsoft people. The problem is that Microsoft will not pay a decent wage or adhere to OSHA requirements. This is their most outrageous proposal yet. They will continue to hammer away at destroying American IT and continue to try to sell their poorly designed & implemented Products.

  31. If you listed to the NPR announcement of sponsors when they tell you that “Microsoft believes everyone has the right to a productive life” what they mean is that Microsoft believes that every country should have equal wages and opportunity. They would like to bring US jobs/wages down to make this happen. I would rather pay to educate some kids on food stamps to become programmers than to always be bringing in foreigners to do American jobs. One of the founding fathers warned that we would someday be beggars on the same land that their ancestors conquered. We are now there my friends.

  32. So, go get a job. Oh you can’t? It’s NOT because H1B workers are getting paid lower and took all your jobs. It’s because you don’t have the right set of skill. Go look at your skill set. I bet you don’t have to skill set companies need NOWADAYS. Stop saying you have 20 years of experience. What you know the best might not be useful anymore today. Do you know MongoDB? Do you know JSON? Do you have experience on Mobile application development? Probably not. That’s why I was hired and you’re not. Accept the fact that you don’t have the right set of skill. Go learn them, you will get the job. The problem is not caused by H1B program. If American are all qualified for the many job opening, I don’t see why American are not getting hired. Again, it’s the matter of your skill set, not the number of years you’ve been working.

    • Is it your crappy code that I have to waste my time debugging because you’re a buzzword purveyor who doesn’t have any knowledge or experience in designing actual solutions?

      Or are you one those arrogant gen-y’s who thinks that learning a programming language is hard?

    • Sorry if I offend anyone.. but I have had really bad experience with (foreign) workers in the states. And I hate outsourcing. I strongly oppose outsourcing, it’s the source of bad code / bad products.

      @Rakesh I’m not fortunately. My American co-workers like me because I produce good code efficiently and I’m the one who fixed bad American code in the company I’m working at right now. Sad but true, among 6 other American SDEs I’m working with, we all agree that there’s one American coder who is constantly contributing really bad code. See? Don’t think that all H1B workers are bad. I won’t say we are all good, some of us are bad and they should go back to their home countries. But, please don’t be too close-minded. Not all H1B workers are good, same thing goes to American workers. It’s those bad American coders who got laid off whining about losing their jobs for H1B workers. Sorry again if I offended you.

      • I’ve wasted most of my IT career fixing bad code. It’s evidence that any moron can learn to program, but IT companies aren’t willing to pay for people who write good code. Sure there are some exceptions, but just look around. Most software these days is either trivial or terrible. It’s not hard to see why.

        Like I said, anyone an learn to program. Most of the h1b staff I’ve worked with wrote terrible code, but that’s also been true of most of the gen-y’s I’ve worked with.

        So I’m changing careers, to one that requires teamwork and skill… And is much harder to fake your way into.

    • Experience has more to do than what language you learned in school …, do you actually think that taking a course in Java and a few CS classes in school make you a better engineer than someone that has turned out dozens of commercial products over the years?

      After you have done software engineering for 20+ years new languages and technologies are not much of a barrier, it’s called YAL (Yet another language). Anyone who has used any OO language can pick up Java, C# whatever very quickly and the same goes with NoSql stuff, and JSON (which is trivial) etc, etc, etc. it took me about 2 months to start putting out Android stuff and I don’t production code anymore (management mostly)

      It’s all about the economics, they don’t like you because you are brilliant, they like you because you are cheap, malleable, and easily disposable if you cause problems.

    • MondoDB is based on C++ and SQL.. Therefore anyone who knows either of those languages can adeptly maneuver and program and manage MondoDB.. the fact that it’s codeless and open source indicates that you really don’t need “new skills” just be able to adapt from the core. Just like if you know how to bake a 10 layer cake, baking a chocolate chip cookie is easy.. Hence. the pay structure can be lower because there really isn’t anything revolutionary… It is similar to a generic drug that comes out 10 years after the brand name.. Generic drugs cost less to make and buy.. Technology evolves and builds on top of existing frameworks and code sets. Retraining is a matter of taking one class or online tutorials and becoming a member of an online community. Mobile development is not rocket science.. I learned how to develop a full app in a matter of hours. You can’t discount experience and depth of knowledge. One thing I have experienced working with young kids who specialize in a very specific software is that they have no clue to how think broadly and adapt. They know one thing and if you ask them to do something else, they are clueless and cannot think outside of their code. That is why they are paid less.

      With that said.. Matt.. in 10 years you will be replaced by someone who specifically knows a new buzzword software that you don’t .. and companies will be looking for the 10 people who initially wrote the software.

      • “you really don’t need “new skills” just be able to adapt from the core” – I couldn’t agree more.

        This ‘skills’ arguement is just plain crap. A database is a database. Whether it’s flat files, ISAM, SQL, Oracle, etc. It’s data that you get in and out of table. Same with all these languages – it’s the same substring / concatenation / manipulation of data.

        The skill is knowing how to creatively think and use the tool.

        At the rate of change, probably a lot of these folks that claim to know every latest language, will never develop the depth of usage that some of us older programmers had for COBOL. Just off to the next, greatest technology.

    • Matt:

      I wonder how old you are? Still in your 20s, I’d guess. Early 30s at latest. Still full of the arrogance of youth that nauseates the older, experienced hands.

      “Go get new skills?” I wonder if you can guess how many of the people posting notes here HAVE done exactly that? Now those people HAVE “up to date skills” and still won’t be hired because, oh, that’s right, they don’t have multiple years “on the job experience” with those new buzzword skills.

      Tell us, Matt, how will you manufacture years of experience in the FooBarBletch technologies when you are unemployed and nobody wants to talk with you, even when you go back to school to learn FooBarBletch? If you come back with “I won’t make the mistake of missing out on the FooBarBletch train”, you will be roundly mocked by everybody here who has 10+ more years of experience than you.

      Get down off your arrogance, young pup, and try being respectful to experienced hands who aren’t lazy or stupid, and WANT more than anything to be productive as they always have been before they were cast aside like garbage. You might actually learn something valuable about life.

      • I agree, to discount expereince is wrong. What skill? Most of the H1B can’t even speak English and I can tell you that has cost more on some projects that it was suppose to save. Skills, if you can’t speak English what good is the rest? If you are not organized and professional what good are the skills? Skills are important and can be learned in school, common sense cannot.

  33. This country was made great by immigrants, and that is undeniable. However, the issue here is a combination of greed and discrimination. There are many US citizens with the right education and ability to do the technical jobs of tomorrow if given the chance. These people have experience in business and technology, are smart and motivated, and have business maturity lacking in your typical college grad. In addition they speak the language and understand the culture. Who are these individuals? IT workers over the age of forty who have been increasingly laid off over the past ten years.

    Most of these people have paid their dues and worked hard most of their lives. The idea that they can’t or won’t be retrained on newer technologies is ludicrous. So when I hear about companies like Microsoft wanting to increase the number of H1b visas to give jobs to younger, foreign workers, it really chaps my hide. Microsoft would not be the global giant it is without the USA, nor would Apple or any of the other large American companies. For that matter, startup companies like Mr. Silvers would not exist without the USA’s entrepreneurial culture and infrastructure. I’m not against immigration, but I am against discimination and greed. These companies need to recognize their debt to their country, and pony up to their social and patriotic responsibility.

    • Unfortunately, Richard, there ARE NOT enough Americans getting the right education to fill high tech, engineering and medical jobs. American kids are very spoiled and they all study Art, or Drama, or they want to be singers and entertainers. Nothing wrong with this but, FIRST and formost there must be a solid, groundwork education and, American kids do not want to work for it. Simply look at the statistics. China and India graduate a huge % of their kids as engineers and with top notch educations. American does not. Yes, the US was built by hungry, ambitious, smart, very hard working immigrants. But today, the US has gotten fat and lazy, and we are slowly paying for it. We need to kick our kids in the butt, and get back to hard focus and work, or we will (and are) be quickly left behind.

      • I agree that we need to put more emphasis on hard skills such as science and engineering in our schools. My point was regarding older workers who employers pass over because they have been out of work for more than six months, or have retrained for jobs but don’t have work experience in that technology. For example, someone who has programming experience in C but has not done it for a long time, and has retrained themselves in Java or PHP but does not have the work experience in the newer tech cannot even get an interview these days. These people could easily become productive given a chance, and should definitely have priority over a H1b visa recipient.

        • ConfusedCountry

          In the 90’s before my kids were of college age, I was constantly telling them to get into computers. By the 2000’s when my oldest was ready for college and I was constantly being battled with outsourcing and training my replacement, I started telling my kids “Anything but computers”. I have spoken to many fathers, and the story is the same–Don’t encourage your kids to study computers or they will end up like us”.

          This is the real reason for the tremendous drop in Computer Science. It is not that the kids are lazy, it is just that “like father like son” is still very real in our society, and kids see the and hear at the dinner table the plight of their parents and have lost interest in the industry. It is no coincidence that enrollment in STEM only started dropping when outsourcing began.

          I am tired of everyone blaming the kids. They are not lazy, they are just look for careers that can’t be outsourced, and are most likely listening to their parents.

          I have been programming for 35 years and I love programming, but I hate the computer industry and to this date I still tell my kids not to get into this field. Can any of us really say that if they study computers they will get a good job? I don’t see our salaries going up, just greater risk of another mass “flooding” of our workforce with people from overseas, and the remainder of the jobs shipped away.

          Lets stop blaming the kids. I don’t want mine to deal with the struggles I’ve had to deal with the past 10 years, do you?

      • Dear TODD,

        You are so wrong!
        You are reciting the extreme political line we are listening every day.

        The issue here is a combination of greed and discrimination (see Richard).

        Richard, I applaud you.

        Best regards to all,


      • USCitizen

        Richard, you are exactly right. I am a perfect example of the person in your example. Been programming in Dbase, Foxpro, Access, Powerbuilder for years before but have retrained myself to learn ASP.Net, C#, etc. etc. But companies pass on me because I don’t have the work experience in that new technology. How do I then gain experience? Try intern? Well, in order to be accepted as an intern, I have to be enrolled as a student…well, i don’t think i need another degree 😉

      • LookALike

        Exactly that’s the point. 100% I agree with you. Its painful for short term but better in the long run.

        Just by employing Americans we are not going to live long. We need to employ the talented. We need to figure out what is core functionality and equip them with talent there. Non core activities or short term activities look for quality and the cost we pay for that. We have to be competitive. Otherwise we will not be having even the companies like MS where our kids can work.

  34. I think this is great. It’s much better then Obama’s plan, to give amnesty to 16,000,000 illegals with zero education and zero skills. We need highly educated and skilled workers who will contribute to this country, pay taxes, be good citizens and, US kids don’t want to study. They just want to be on American Idol or some garbage. I went to college and I’ve had a darn good job for 20+ years. I’ve never had my job threatened by foreigners ’cause, I keep myself trained, educated and competative.

    • ” ’cause, I keep myself trained, educated and competative.”

      This is the right attitude every one of us should have. People should stop whining about losing their jobs because of the fact that “they got laid off”. Look at the reason. Most likely they are not as productive as the first day they started working. Or their skill set are outdated.

    • Consider yourself fortunate, Todd. I was a director in a large IT company and was one of those managers tasked with outsourcing American jobs overseas, and whose job was eventually moved as well. Many highly productive and well trained individuals in the company were laid off – I know this to be fact. While not explicitly stated by management, many of those were targeted for layoffs off based on compensation (read age).

      Also, generalizing that US kids don’t want to study is oversimplistic. I see grade school kids doing math at a higher level than when I was the same age, and I ended up a computer science and engineering major.

  35. jerrybdot

    What is being forgotten is that the United States is a nation whose function is to serve the citizens of the United States. Hiring H1B’s and L1’s during high unemployment is simply wrong.

    What if the companies sponsoring H1B/L1/. . ./ STEMs were charged $10,000 * (high tech unemployment rate – 4%). In Washington, our unemployment rate is 8.5% (which does not count those who have given up looking or who are now working in minimum waged jobs), so an H1B this year would cost a company $45,000.

    • LookALike

      1. These H1B and L1 are paying tax to our country.
      2. They even pay social security , by the way they don’t get any benefits for this.
      3. By the same logic, say those countries decide not to buy American products ? Will you be having job then ? Margins made by selling in America is marginal and our GDP is moving like a snail. It important to be Globally successful.
      4. Now about choice of employees. Please go and study the number of engineers produced by countries around the world and whats the choice MNCs get and from where ?

      • Listen to Reason

        yes you pay tax for 3 years on a Visa, and we Paid 20 years, and you conribute how after you have 5 chldren using our hospitals and schools, roads and bridges?

        Get real, you pay little tax fpor what you consume, its not worth it….and Microsoft and companies get the gain and Americans wait in line in hospitals now. You are SO WRONG!!!!

      • Liberman

        You paid 20 years so you are eligible than them. You work better than them and you alone know quality job. That’s is the logic you are trying to float. But these type of things will float only if you are doing a business inside your home. By the bye they pay tax for 3 years and then they leave the country. So what they are getting. You said its negligible amount, so why cant you say “let it go” if that’s negligible. Double Standards. When its your money and your benefit you are saying all this.

  36. I don’t have an IT degree, but I have spent 13 years as an application developer, self teaching and learning on the job. It has allowed me to become very efficient and very quick to adapt to chaning technologies and learning new software. My comment is that if India has such great talent, why are they not using it in their own country to develop the business there so that they can bring their economic level out of the “3rd world”. They are doing themselves a disservice by sending their talent outside leaving their own country without an educated pool that could help the nation. They are actually preventing their own development and contributing to the poverty by not utilizing the educated people in their homeland. Many european nations don’t offer exit visas to young college grads because they want to encourage investment into their own country… especially because governments fund tuition. Most kids go to school for free in many countries.

    In addition, if anyone is really looking at business trends, quite a few companies are “on-shoring” many manufacturing and IT jobs, bringing them back to the US citing reasons that include: poor quality, long delays, too many “revisions and corrections” lack of control in production, communication issues with Indian, Malaysian, and Chinese workers. Google insourcing and on-shoring trends. There are several companies that are doing this.


      To answer your comment – “if India has such great talent, why are they not using it in their own country to develop the business there so that they can bring their economic level out of the “3rd world”.

      The Indian govt is not at all keen on sending workers trained at their subsidized universities to the US for working as H1B slaves for US corporations and possibly even becoming a green card holder / citizen down the line ! It’s the US companies who have opened up the door – and pay much higher salary compared to India and also you get a better standard of living – all these factors cause talent from India to migrate to the US. And unlike mexicans, they only send a small fraction of their income back home, if at all. Because they are too busy buying huge single family homes and luxury cars they could have never been able to afford back in India.

      What the Indian and other foreign governments do want US companies to do is increase outsourcing / offshoring to their countries. That is happening nowadays to a large extent. US companies facing “labor shortage” are choosing to set up their huge campuses / offices in 3rd world countries like India. That way, India does not lose their talent pool to the US and moreover these IT workers earn and spend their entire income in India. They pay taxes in India and so does their US employer. Indian IT worker salary levels have almost doubled over the last 10 years thanks to outsourcing. (It’s still about 50% of US levels, so outsourcing makes business sense)

      Thus, expanding the H1B program is an extremely bad idea for the economies of countries like India and Indian IT workers who would not like to be H1B slaves in a foreign country.

      • LookALike

        Another blunder. India and China are using there work force in half the cost to compete with us. That’s why its important for us to be competitive.

        No MNC in US pays two different salaries for their employees. All are treated equal. Then there are contractors for one time short term jobs. Which they outsource to remain competitive.

  37. This is pure crap. None of you have read the STEM legislation. We need to provide jobs for american workers first…….there are plenty of qualified american programmers. I am in an engineering program with experience/certifications and have worked as a programmer but its very hard for me to find a fulltime job now… The H1B program is filled with corruption and exploitation of workers.

    Check out the National Employment Law Project website…………

    The bottom line is Microsoft and other employers want to employ non american citizens because they can pay them less!! That is the reason microsoft wants this. This is the same crap they were saying in the 1990s. The best programmers are in the US, not in India or China.

  38. Michael Lodman

    “Unfortunately, learning to become a programmer is not something where existing workers can be retrained.”

    There are many many thousands of programmers that need jobs here already. The excuse is so thin breathing on it breaks it.

    The truth is that US companies want H1 and L1 visas because they can get cheap labor and screw the American professional over. Some companies like Microsoft proudly abuse the system and have for years. Qualcomm goes so far as to advertise how many of their workers are foreign. For Microsoft to fill these positions all they’d need do is pay more and the market would take care of it. Far better to whine to Congress that the supply of slave labor is too low and that they need a few more slave ships from China and India.

  39. Back in 2007 I went to a training class on Project Management that was offered by a shop run by a group of gentlemen from India. The class was very good, and taught by a professional, but my classmates were people who had no background whatsoever in IT. To compensate for this, the shop owners were actively fabricating resumes and providing references for these bogus resume entries. I had many years of experience but had taken a break so it was deemed important that we fabricate my resume too. Instead, I took a job in another field. All my classmates were from India. They were intelligent, pleasant and hardworking, but completely faked. I was saddened and disgusted that people who did the hiring for my chosen career could not or would not distinguish between real experience and fake. It also explained some of the inflated resumes that had come across my desk a few years earlier, when I was in a position to hire.

    • Oh gawd. For those of us who actually have INTEGRITY about our resumes, this is vomit-worthy. 🙁

      That explains why so many job posts are so ridiculously over-specified that the only person who’d be qualified is Superman… and Superman doesn’t want to work for $30k.

  40. USCitizen

    There are US citizens out there who have a Bachelors degree, not necessarily in Computer Science. Their experience may be non-IT related but wanted to change careers and find opportunities in the IT industry. They take formal training in the latest technologies from reputable institutions. They are now graduates, equipped with the new skills IT companies are looking for. They start sending their resumes. But the general response they get is…they lack the experience. Many companies then hire H1-Bs who may have the years of experience they are looking for.

    How then will this US citizen job seeker get IT experience?

  41. Microsoft is full of BS on this subject. It is about wages and discrimination. But I might go for a trial period if:
    1. No american could meet the qualifications.
    2. The H1B’s performance could be audited after 30 days to see if they wee performing the work specified by the qualifications.
    3. Hiring of an H1B requires signoff by an HR officer, an Executive, and the hiring manager.
    4. If an American had the same qualifications, or the H1B was not doing the job specified, it’s a felony, minimum 1 year in federal prison.

    I think you would see the requests drop considerably. I have seen where an H1B was brought in, none of the 15 engineers already doing the work met the “new qualifications”. And the H1B – unproductive after 6 months.

  42. Jeff Johnson

    A lesson in basic economics, if demand outstrips supply, then the cost goes up. So if there were indeed a lack of qualified applicants as Microsoft states, then the salaries of IT employees would be going up. Is that the case? Well according to Compuworld, in 2012, IT salaries rose a whopping 2.1% after years of staying stagnant for many years. If the shortage was indeed as bad as Microsoft was stating, the rise in salaries would be much higher.

    Therefore, why would Microsoft want to bring in more workers? Obviously to match supply and demand and keep salaries from rising. It’s not that they can’t find the right people, it is that the right people are costing them more and they don’t want to pay.

    Secondly, because H1B workers typically want to get a green card because they know their pay will increase, something that is not supposed to happen. H1B’s rarely change employers because their employers sponsor their green cards This makes them temporary slaves which also keeps salaries low and movement low. Once companies have them trained, they are not going anywhere so again the companies costs are reduced.

    It all makes sense if you are an employer but does little to attract and keep people in the IT field if salaries are kept artificially low.

    • LookALike

      You are talking about economics !!! What you are suggesting is employing Americans on higher wages for non core one time activities paying higher wages and then selling that product to make margins. Don’t be so idiotic. If you make such a costly product where will you sell them. Just think Apple making products like that in US . What will be their margin ?? I guess if people like you who don’t know basic math’s, doesn’t work, companies will make profit 😛

      • What a farse, I can prove it takes several H1B folks to produce the same as on American….

        3X H1B at $55 each versus one American at $110, which is cheaper? Not to mention quality.

        The 3X H1B’s work will most likely be sloppy need high maintenance and then will have to be re-written by the American at $110, that is what you dont see, or failed to mention.

      • Liberman

        You don’t know even the basics. When one H1B works here he is supported by 10 in their back office. That is the reality. And the quality you claim is not needed for such work. We need to get it done at reasonable quality for a low cost and that is getting done here. The products produced thus are then sold much cheaper for a lot of Americans and other citizens. What is wrong in it.

        By the way all core jobs are done by permanent personal and can you show me a leading MNC who has two types of payment for Non-H1B and H1B. Before bluffing you should investigate that. There is nothing like that happening.

    • If existing workers aren’t already into programming and older than 30, they might find the mindset needed for programming to be too much. The ones who are doing really well are the ones who’ve been fascinated with computers before they learned anything about computers. If you enjoy math, this would be another pathway to computer competence, but unfortunately I don’t see much interest in math by most people. (When I was growing up and now.)

      The real block is that tech companies want proven skills in computers now. They act like its taking chances getting a CS graduate without experience now.

  43. We have huge numbers of out of work IT people in the US who Microsloth could hire. SOME would need some training for the specific job. Only problem is that they couldn’t get away with paying minimum wage in most cases. MS knows the only reason for the H1B program is to find CHEAP labor. The program should be cut way back, not expanded, and if you did you would see unemployment in the US drop.

    Of course, if H1B were cut back, MS would just move more jobs to the far east! Unless, of course, US tax code were finally fixed to make that more difficult. But Romney and friends would never go for that; he still makes a huge amount of money each year from sending US jobs to China!

  44. I have a bs and ms in software development, my recommendation is to train american workers…offer incentivesfor stem education. short term and long needs can be achieved through training. if 22yrs ago an aggresive program was implemented we would see the benefit today. Next the 10k could go towards training. Technology worker shortage is a global problem. providing visas to attract workers is a short term fix

  45. MS is BSing big times. Where is the IT shortage? Companies are so picky these days that they want to have expertise in 10 areas and if one area is missing or weak, they don’t hire. MS posted Sr Enterprise Architect few days ago. Looking at the job requirements and at least 4 of my friends who have every possible skill listed, applied for the job. The total applicants through linkedin were 177, not sure about other sites. They cannot find 1 skilled person out of 500 applicants?? They should be in Space Research business then…If they need bachelor degree in Engineering all of my friends who applied have Master degree in EE or CS. GO FIX YOUR PROBLEMS MS.

  46. Foreigners and their children are far easier to convince that they need to give up their Constitutional rights. Why should they care? They never had them in China, etc? No ties back to the founding fathers. No dog in the fight. Easier to control. What government would NOT want more of them?

  47. Interesting a lot money collected from the US govt and Microsoft, cheap labor for immigrants with good skills, this is wrong. In the meantime laid off workers can apply back and if lucky get hired but the pay is lower.

      • There are contract positions galore at Microsoft, but they can afford to be picky. You need to be local or willing to move on your dime. Unfortunately the gig I had lost a lot of budget so I’m back looking, but have another interview with Microsoft Monday. Luckily I live close to their headquarters and they have groups getting budget while others are losing it. Yes, I am a citizen, born in the area, so kind of like the weather here. (Pacifica was too foggy/cloudy, Concord was too hot. Both near San Fran.)

      • Michael Lodman

        Ken, they can afford to be picky because the threat of H1 and L1 visas is ever present. They don’t need to raise their pay to attract the best, they merely cow the market with extra-market factors.

  48. The truth is that Microsoft is not hiring the highly-skilled American worker. They are passing over the experienced US Citizen to make the case to hire unskilled internationals. A four or five month international employee will get hired above a seasoned IT professional from the US. Microsoft is using our tax dollars to educate the international employee in our state colleges while displacing our high-school graduates and turning away our college graduates from the same universities. Microsoft routinely abuses the contract employee model and manages to barely skate under the law.

    • Liberman

      Who is the so called American Worker ? Count some generations back you will find your forefathers looking for work in America like the H1Bs do here now. Nothing is different. Immigrants build this country. If he is lawful here he should have equal chance like other Americans. Don’t America sell and products in those countries. Don’t the companies in those countries employ Americans. I know they do. I don’t get the problem, don’t blame the law when reality is you are incapable.

      • @CONFUSEDCOUNTRY…. actually you are incorrect. The first settlers were paid to come here. The German, French and British governments paid people to settle here. They provided the costs of the travel and then once they landed they had to work off their fare. which created very bad situations for workers.. (indentured servants, long hours and labor abuse…that gave rise to unions later on) but the seed money provided many early settlers the opportunity to build better lives.

        • ConfusedCountry

          I stand corrected. I just looked up what you said and it is true. I found many examples. Thanks for your insight.

          In a way, the new H1-B’s are similar to the indentured servants of past, they cannot quit, (other than to go back) and must serve the corporation that paid their “H1 Fee”. However, I can’t find an example where locals were displaced by the indentured. Obviously this must be happening now, or so many people wouldn’t be complaining about it.

          I will search some more to see if there is a precedence for this in our history, but if you can find an example, please enlighten me/us. That small tidbit of information may give us all a clue as to where we are all headed in this “new” experiment called globalism. History does repeat itself.

          Good insight.

      • @CONFUSEDCOUNTRY…There really isn’t a true case comparison because in the early days there was not enough workers to work the farms and shops. And because most settlers were just starting out, they couldn’t pay employees high wages… and they couldnt’ find free labor.. so what they did was pay the transports for new workers who would work for free for a while and then would be set “free” to build their own shops and farms etc… Apprenticeships started out that way as well.

        Unfortunately I don’t have any case studies where locals are displaced by immigrant workers, although that issue has been in the topics of government many times in US history, and it is one of the key points anti-immigration sentiments exist. Case: Immigrants displacing American in farm and low wage jobs like lawncare, fast food service, hotel/resort maintenance etc… But there are fundamental points that pro-immigration camps support in that American workers don’t want to work on farms for low wages or clean hotel bathrooms or cut other people’s lawns.. that it’s not good enough for them. But Immigrants coming to the States and making $5-12/hour are in heaven compared to their monthly $50-$200/ salaries in their native lands.

        This is all besides the point and slightly off topic in that the Tech Industry is an area that has a high local worker competition combined with corporate desire to keep wages down and maximize profits ergo outsourcing. The labor issue is that Americans (the locals in this case) are competing for the same jobs that H1B’s are which creates the “displacement” sentiments. One way that I think American can compete is to make do with less. If we keep pushing the wages higher, companies will find someone else to do the work. It’s a reality and the only thing we can control is our own individual actions… If we want to compete for the same jobs, either we have to offer something different, better, or lower cost than the competition. It’s basic strategy concepts.

        Just as a side note: The US in the next 5-10 years will be in dire shortage of electricians and plumbers. Hourly rates for these positions is rising as the baby boomers are beginning to retire and there is no one coming up the pipes (pun intended) to take over those functions. In addition, Europe, Australia and Latin America are focusing on alternative energy.. and are already 30 years ahead of the US in their technology and implementations.. (Case: Europe now produces enough solar power to meet the annual demand of an entire country.. Austria)
        The reason I bring this up is that the US is very short sighted.. always thinking about making money now.. and not planning for the future.. that is why there is the shortage in college grads going into STEM fields.. whether the shortage is perceived or not, the younger generations have been growing up playing xbox and nintendo, while their parents work two jobs, instead of studying and preparing for the next generation industries– technology included.. and the Asians and Indians have been pushing education for their kids to compete with the Americans for the past 30 years..Its time for American’s to think long term.. not just short term if we are to be competitive in a global economy. Many countries are already surpassing. – Sorry for the pontification and rambling.. one thing led to another.

        • ConfusedCountry

          You bring up many interesting points, but there are two places where we break with past history. First there is a tremendous currency imbalance between nations. It is easy to see how many people would just give up and not go into technology. How can you compete with such imbalances? I have seen comments where someone questioned that just because we “just happened” to be born here should that give us special privileges? But the reverse is also true, just because your currency “just happens” to be one quarter that of ours, should that give you special privileges?

          The problem is, you have two groups of people. One who just happened to be born here with tremendous opportunity, and one who’s currency is way more deflated giving them tremendous opportunity as well, and the two worlds collide.

          There is nothing wrong in creating new opportunity for everyone in the world. A great example is 24 hour around the clock support. Adding jobs in India, during our night time creates growth and opportunity for everyone. I am all for it. People over here, can call tech support in the middle of the night, and people over there can get the same in return. We all benefit from this growth.

          But taking a job away from one person, only to give it to another does not create growth. All it does is take an opportunity away from one person to give it to another, and redistributes the wealth to the rich. If I make 100k, over here, I can buy a lot with the money. If my job is transferred overseas, and my counterpart only makes 10k. He can buy much less, but the employer of the business gets to keep the 90k more. All of a sudden as world citizens we all spiral down and have less.

          Outsourcing jobs by taking jobs away from somebody else, does not improve society, it lowers the standards for all people. There have been many arguments made that the money saved by outsourcing lowers prices over here. That is simply not true. Look at all the outsourcing Banks have done. Have you seen their bank fees going down? No, of course not, only profits going up.

          The end result is that all societies are forced to lower their standards. (you did say we should lower our wages to be competitive). I think the friction you are seeing on this very site is the result of that. People here feel like they are on a sinking ship, and people over “there” see the opportunity in snatching the life vest off somebody’s back just to get over here. If in the end, the Americans drown, so what!

          During Y2K there were plenty of computer jobs, I knew of nobody who cared about the H1-B at the time. We were all making money and everyone was welcome, but today growth has stopped and it has just become a game of musical chairs with more and more foreigners trying to grab the chairs away from somebody else, and then lowering the standards for everybody as a whole. This is having the side-effect of empowering the greedy in this country and around the world.

          I don’t know what the solution is, but as somebody has commented here before, I think the answer should be for them to elevate their own country and create growth over there, not come over here and take opportunities away from us. How long can India with one billion people go on being the parasites of the world. It is time to build up India, not tear down America.

          –oh, and I don’t buy the blind faith argument that all immigration is good. I just don’t see it playing out that way. All I see is struggling and lower wages for all. We have Mexicans working at poverty, we have ALL programmers making less money than programmers made 10 years ago, and many more unemployed than ever.

          The Indian mentality has to change from believing that their one billion people can prosper by trying to infiltrate the west and “grow” by taking everyone else’s job. This will not be sustainable much longer. The parasites are starting to kill the host. We can’t hire ALL of India. Indian’s need to focus on their own growth. They need nothing more from the west. All of human knowledge is already on Wikipedia, there is nothing that we can do here that they can’t do there, and if they continue trying to be the world’s labor force then they will become nothing more than a very parasitic society.

          • I understand your point. I made a comment to this post regarding India’s export of workers and how it ultimately has a negative impact on India’s situation. They are losing their talent and potential for growth inside their own country. But they also have a lot of roadblocks to success within. They rank very low on the ease of doing business; ranking 132 out of 183 overall; 166 in ease of starting a Business, and 181 in Dealing with Construction Permits. Perhaps the educated labor force and families who want something better for their kids are frustrated that their government can’t provide methods to create and advance their own economy. But with all the high education that they are learning in American Universities, they should be able build their economy. They have the education, and knowledge; they could be building a strong nation within their own currency and then when they have saturated the opportunities, then expand. Otherwise nothing will change.

            Unfortunately economic downturns create many social issues and countries become “nationalistic” in a way. Rightfully so, in that everyone has a right to a decent living and when jobs are going to exports, it creates a greater hardship on the local population. My family moved here from Europe when I was young. I finally became a citizen about 12 years ago. I’m grateful for the sacrifices they made so that I can have a better future. America is still viewed as the “promised land”.

  49. Here is the thing

    I know for a fact that companies find a candidate, make him/her rewrite their resume so that it matches a bizarre set of skills that don’t make sense. Then they post this position and guess what only the cheap foreign student qualifies!

    If it’s true that these students are oh so much better than people here then do this

    Companies should be randomly screened to make sure that the employee has the skills, and at the experience level required. If they don’t the company will be fined at 100x the salary they offered the employee if any US citizen can be found to have the actual skills the H1-B person has, and they will be restricted from suing H1-B holders for a period of 10 years.

    An H1B holder MUST be paid a 25% higher wage than the average wage for that position. I mean they are brilliant right? So 25% is cheap to get the ultra-brillant person, right?

    Next remove the restrictions from H1B holders to move to a new job, if they get a new job it’s automatically moved to the new company, no fee’s at all, just paperwork, simple.

    Next charge the initial hiring companies 25% of the first years wages, this money will go to retrain out of work technology workers here.

    Finally make it illegal to have these workers perform longer than 8 hours per day or on weekends, make it a criminal offense.

    In return you can open up the H1-B program to a million people, because of If all of the things that the H1-B proponents are saying are true these rules would be welcomed.

    Yeah laughable I know, but so are the reasons that companies give for wanting the cheap slave labor that displaces US workers.

    • LookALike

      I am amazed to see the level of ignorance people have towards the world outside. I am working for a multinational here in US and had worked for several multinatinals here and I dont see any reason for trouble for having H1B on our roles. We have lot of H1B in our workforce. They are paid on par with other US nationals. Even in the case of Microsoft I know clearly that they dont have two salary schemes for H1B and non-H1B. They are recruited on the basis of there experience and skills. I challange anyone here who can show a permenant MS employee who is in H1B who is paid less than his peers. Same is the case with most of the MNCs, worldwide.

      Most of the people commenting here are making noise without knowing the underlying facts. It is true that there are lot of third party vendors who work for companies like Microsoft who is paid by the third party vendor. Its true that Microsoft saves money there by giving contract to thrid party companies. This is for one time tasks which needs to be done for which they dont need permenant employees. Then most of the contracts are going to Indian and Chinese companies for a reason.
      They are competitive and cost-to-quality is good. Now the question is why cant they be working here ? if American MNCs can sell stuff in India and China why cant a foriegn employee work here ? We should not be having double standards when it comes to our benefit. Have you ever thought of the impact American MNCs will have if we deduct the profit that we make from these countries in the present world ? These are decisions of the new world and open access to market is mutual agreed under world trade organizations charter. If we control, they will also control
      their markets. Our profits will plunge and forget about better pay, even jobs will not be there for H1Bs or say non H1Bs. American MNCs are competitive now and needs to remain competitive. Already other MNCs are putting lot of pressure so its important that we maintain cost-to-quality for such non core tasks. Just compare the profit American companies make from rest of the world mainly India and China. Compare it with the profit their companies make from here in US. You will clearly understand the dynamics of the world trade. Compare the GDP growth of US to some of the other countries, I cannot see any company who is not in those growth markets who will survive for long term. That is certain.

      One can be ignorant, but cannot be dumb all thru the life, even after knowing whats better long term just for the sake of short term money corporate America cannot make decisions. Suppose that we employee only American worker as suggested in this forum by someone. Now the foreign markets will close doors for our products. Our profits will plunge. Other companies around the world who are competitive will take over us. America needs to understand that this is not the only place where humans live. There are smart people around the globe. We need to be competitive than them. I only have to say one thing. Either we will adapt or perish, its the same rule all over the world. We cant change that.

      • I had worked 2 year back as a contractor there in MS. Whatever LookALike telling is true. They don’t have two salary schemes for their employees.

        Its true that lot of vendors are there who pay differently and sometime bring outside labor. But Microsoft pays the vendors decently. Then vendor takes commission and pays the remaining to the employee. Lot of them are American vendors too. So I don’t think H1B is the problem. I could see equal opportunities for everyone there. But you will not get if you are just average or above average.

        Then I guess one will have reasons to differ if they didn’t get something good. That is natural.

      • ConfusedCountry

        I don’t think the points being made is that we shouldn’t hire foreign workers. The point is that most of the workers are low-skilled low wage. In fact, you basically made that case yourself by saying “They are competitive and cost-to-quality is good” twice. A good value or ‘cost-to-quality’ is not the same thing as high quality high skill, agreed? Our standards are being lowered.

        I also find it interesting that you would say “Suppose that we employee only American worker as suggested in this forum by someone. Now the foreign markets will close doors for our products”. Maybe that is how you think over there, but Americans don’t think that way and it is not part of our values. We don’t say “If the Chinese don’t hire American workers in their tire factory, we won’t buy their tires”. Do we? So if your argument is valid, you just made the point that others have posted how Indians are extremely bigoted and only hire their own, and only buy products from their own. Is it true that if Indians don’t make the products over here, then Indians won’t buy them over there? Do you think this is true of other countries? I’ve never seen that attitude coming from Europeans or Canadians.

        30 years ago, we had this problem with cheap Japanese imports. Eventually the value of the currencies equalized and nobody complains about cheap Japanese imports any more.

        Eventually the currencies between India and USA will equalize. Over the past 10 years the rates have come up dramatically in India. In another 10-20 years an equilibrium will be achieved and at that point, you will see that the whole argument about finding “higher skilled workers in India” will vanish. It simply isn’t true.

        The arguments being made on this site are not against bringing in the “Best and the Brightest” from around the world. There are certainly really talented people around the world, but you have to admit, the quality and talent of most of these H1-B’s that have been brought in are certainly not the best and the brightest from around the world. They are low skilled replacement workers and nothing more. If they are really the “Best and the Brightest” how come they are mostly Indians. I would think that the “Best and the Brightest from around the world” would mean a vast mix of ethnicity from around the world but that is not what is happening, which can only mean that the “best and the brightest” are being crowed out by Indians, unless you want to say that India is blessed with a special gene? Can the percentages and statistics of talented people really be so heavily weighted with Indians? Is this imbalanced explained by special genes possessed by Indians? Is it caused by racial bias by Indians to only hire their own? Or is it simply not true that we are bring in the “Best and the Brightest”?

        If you can’t answer the question, are dare not, then it seems you agree with most of the postings on this site, and know they are true, but haven’t the courage to admit it.

      • Sounds like you work in a bubble, you shoudl read this blog again….sure there are a few exceptions, but the H1B program as a whole is bing abused period at the cost of American Employment.

        If you are from Accenture or Deloitte, I know that is not true.

      • @CONFUSEDCOUNTRY.. just to follow-up.. I spent 13 years in Application Development/ Web management and our projects began finding their way to outsourced and contract developers in India and China.. much of my tasks were to fix code, re-explain requirements by drawing pictures and being a go-between for the business and IT. This is going to be a trend. H1B’s will get the development jobs for $40-50 per hour and companies will need to hire supervisors and go-betweens to quality check and buffer the developer…. I just read an article that said that 215,000 IT jobs will be going unfilled by 2018… so if you have kids who are thinking about college, there will be opportunities because companies will realize that outsourcing is costing more money in terms of project deadline delays, rework and code fixing. Eventually the low wage will not be profitable for the company.. Many companies are already “insourcing” tech jobs, support, call center and manufacturing for that same reason. It’s too costly and they get better quality, more efficiency and higher productivity rates in the US.

        • ConfusedCountry

          What you say is true. I am also working on a project that got screwed up overseas. I pretty much had to work for 6 months full-time rewriting huge chunks of the code that could never work. I am almost done, but all I did was turn change a bunch of programs from not working at all, to working with horrible ugly code that runs, but can never be enhanced again. If we ever need to enhance the system we will need to start over. This is the cost of outsourcing.

          ..but this also brings up a more important point which is more serious. There will be a skills shortage definitely. I’ve been programming for 35 years and have done nothing else. I started programming in 1976 and all the way up until Y2K there was a mentorship with senior programmers mentoring juniors. Then came the dot com boom and Y2K.

          All the most talented programmers quit corporate America to go for the gold rush and join the dot com movement. These were the best and most highly skilled people. These people represented the “best and the brightest” and the most creative. Meanwhile, all corporate development came to a screeching halt because all corporations wanted to do was date changes. As Americans left the corporations to go on to bigger and better things, the jobs were back-filled (mostly from India) to do menial date change work (who wanted to do that?). They were like the Mexican crop pickers of the computer industry, none of the Americans wanted to do that work, so it worked out well. Corporations didn’t need the dot com “mentors” as they flew out the door because they weren’t planning on designing anything new for a few years until Y2K was over anyway. Companies only needed low skilled workers to do date changes. Corporate American came to a stand still for about 4 years. Clinton raised the H1-B limit to something like 165,000 per year (which I guess made sense at the time), while that same amount of programmers left in droves to go work at some start-up company.

          All of a sudden the perfect storm hit. The .dot com when bust, and all those talented Americans were dumped on the street, and all of the Corporate jobs were back-filled by low wage low skilled foreign workers. This is when all of the problems began.

          Most of the programmers who now became the new incumbents never designed any of the stuff they inherited. They also learned programming in different ways than we did.

          Prior to Y2K Programmers got an assignment and we went back to our desk and did our jobs for 3-6 months working on our piece. We were very highly specialized. We had no serious version control software, and the VCS that existed used record locking which worked fine back then. You never had two people editing the same code anyway. You did your job, I did mine. If you touched my code I broke your fingers. The concept of merging code was almost non existent.

          After Y2k, we had a new culture of programming. “Everybody does everything”. That mentality works if you are trying to change dates everywhere. No point in specializing, everyone becomes a generalist. Unfortunately that culture has stuck.

          Today we can’t function without version control systems like GIT or SVN that specialize in merging code. A version control system that used locking would be out of the question today. Along with the “everybody does everything” mentality, came the “scrum”. We all stand around in a circle everyday and do our show and tell because the concept of extreme specialization has left us and now we all have to know what everybody else is doing so we don’t step on each others toes.

          The outcome is that we are now all generalists. Specialists are gone. We can no longer write anything without first downloading something to use, and extending it in some small way. That’s how we learn to program today. The new generation were mentored by the new incumbents “The date change specialists” which has dramatically dumbed down the industry. The new generation of programmers can’t program, and this is why we have so many programmers and yet we have a skills shortage too!

          The really highly skilled “programmers” have been replaced by the people who can use “tools” to get the job done. It is like replacing guitar players with Rappers who can Rap over records. Sure we can read a book and learn Spring or Hibernate. –but what if there is no book, no Spring, and no Hibernate? What if you have to really write something new and complex from scratch with nothing more than just a compiler? Then you have a skills shortage.

          Back in the day, the attitude was, “anything you can do, I can do better” (AKA– “I want to become a great programmer”). Today the attitude is “Let’s not reinvent the wheel” (AKA– “because I wouldn’t have a clue how to do it anyway. I better stick to the book”)

          Unfortunately, all the popular technology of today will get old, and we will need programmers to write new things. New things implies, no book, no Spring, and no Hibernate–just a compiler and lots of code. We no longer have a generation of programmers who can do that.

          If there is no XML to config, it can’t be done. Unfortunately this whole J2EE stack (and other “stacks”) will get old. Soon we will have to go back to basics. Who is going to do it?

          The skills shortage is real, but that has nothing to do with bringing in more H1-B’s either. That won’t solve the problem, but it may make it worse. The baby boomers were the last real generation of people who ALWAYS had to write everything from scratch. They are the ones who still know how to do it, and many have left and many more will leave in droves very soon leaving behind the “Let’s not reinvent the wheel” crowd to push this industry forward !

          I say good luck to all the companies that are focused on low skilled cheap labor. When corporate IT starts to buckle with the burden of parasitic programmers where you need a dozen to do what one person used to do, it will be too late for them to recover.

          I say, let Microsoft find the most low skilled cheap labor until they collapse.

        • @Anita_H: I love your comments, apparent knowledge and thought process. If your work ethic and process are the same as what I see here, I’d jump right in and hire you if I were in a position to do so.

          Meanwhile, related to your comment on “insourcing”, I’d noticed this trend a few years ago. the outsourcing had some of the problems you indicated, including time delays and (one of the biggest problems we have with foreign workers) lack of cultural understand of the expectations.
          So more and more, I’ve seen primarily very smart India-natives coming here and taking over positions (including management spots) and trying to handle projects. Because they seem to be the brightest of India, they do a great job expect that they are very slow at understanding the culture and therefore get things wrong over and over until years later when they finally start to get it. Meanwhile, the projects suffer because they keep failing to meet expectations. Is this a good value for the company? It’s a good investment, but very expensive and could just as easily have been applied to less top-notch Americans who already understand the culture (but also have higher costs for benefits, etc.)

          I’d love to hear your thoughts on my observations.

          • ConfusedCountry

            The problems of cultural mismatch is really two problems rolled into one. The first problem is American culture as we know it is very different than theirs, but I think the real mismatch is “computer culture”.

            In many ways the Software development industry went through a similar transformation that the Automotive Industry went through. Back in 1930 the definition of a mechanic was very different than what it means today. Before Y2K the definition of a programmer was also very different than what it means today.

            Lets look at the mechanic first. In 1930, when a car broke down, a good mechanic knew how to use a welding torch, grinder, and his entire machine shop to make new parts. If your brakes wore out, he’d have to cut down some new metal. Sure there were parts available, but fixing a 1925 car in 1930 meant you better know how to use your machine shop.

            If you tele-ported that great mechanic from 1930, and dropped him into a Chevy dealership today, he’d be fired on the first day. If a customer needed new brakes, the 30’s mechanic, would say “sure no problem, I’ll cut you up a pair right now”. Of course the Chevy Manager would look on in horror and say “What are you doing? Are you stupid?”. You need part # AC5672x, you’re an idiot and your fired!”.

            The same has happened with programmers. We used to write everything from scratch. We spent much of our day on the white board, designing what we needed, and then we’d all go off in our own directions write our code over a few months and eventually meet in the middle. We were much more highly specialized in a more narrow band of work. That is why there was no merging of code like there is today. Our old version control tools weren’t inferior, they were all we needed. If I am doing the welding, and you are sowing the leather, we have no need to “merge” our work and we don’t need Scrum.

            As I mentioned before, the perfect storm of the dot com bust and Y2K caused a massive shift. The best and the brightest left Corporate America for the dot com gold rush, while Corporations back-filled their positions with the new generation of programmers to do date change work. When Y2K ended the Dot Com went bust and all the good programmers were dumped on the street and the “date change” experts brought in on H1-B’s became the new incumbents. With the date change work behind them they began their new programming career during the new age of “Open Source”. They didn’t have to learn to write code from scratch, just used “Struts” (part# AC2567X) or some other Open Source product.

            The interview process also changed. Just as the original mechanics were interviewed based on their knowledge of the machine shops and tools, and are now interviewed on their knowledge of the parts, us programmers went through that same transformation.

            Today’s programmers are interviewed based on how well they understand their “Parts Catalog”. Do you know Spring, Hibernate, J2EE, EJB, and so on. It’s been more than 10 years since somebody really cared about what I can write from scratch. In fact, I’ve taken everything innovative that I ever wrote off of my resume. It usually breeds antagonistic questions such as “Why didn’t you just use xyz? Why did you waste your time reinventing the wheel?”.

            I wrote an HTTP Server for myself at home which I use for fun. I did it because programing is my hobby. I once made the mistake of putting in on my resume and tried to demo my work. The hiring manager refused to interview me because somebody who writes their own server raises a “red flag”. It is a sign of a person who would rather waste their time reinventing the wheel, rather than make productive use of their time.

            I wondered if he also thought that playing guitar was also a big time waster reinventing the wheel when you can just play the CD? After having several incidents such as this (seriously) I took everything innovative off my resume and just list the “Parts Catalog” and what I “used” to get the job done. That is all our industry cares about today.

            Now back to the point of cultural difference. There are still a few Americans left that still understand what it takes to develop software from scratch, although it is becoming fewer and fewer all the time.

            For those who have never done it it can be pretty scary. To the “new comers”, it is not only scary, it also seems wrong. “Let’s not reinvent the wheel”. Let’s use Hibernate or Struts. The new comers were never exposed to the true “art of programming”. They came during Y2K, and resumed their careers during the Open Source revolution–and these are experienced people with 10 or more years of experience now.

            The real problem is that for “cookie cutter” type systems, the new generation has all the parts in the catalog to do the job. Most good mechanics in a Chevy dealership can hop up a truck or build a Dune Buggy.

            But if you need a Formula-One race car designed from scratch, you can get all the best mechanics from all the Chevy dealerships around the world and they will never design a Formula-One. They still can only build a Dune Buggy.

            We are faced with this very problem today. This is the true unrecognized skills shortage. The cultural mismatch comes from the breakdown of the mentorship from one generation to the next.
            None of the Chevy mechanics ever spent any time on the tracks learning from the Formula-One designers so to speak. This dramatic shift happened too quickly. The Dot Com boom sucked all of our talented designers and programmers out of the corporations on a massive scale, and then they sucked in so many low skilled replacement workers, at a time when no company was doing ANY new development other than date changes! The new comers came during a COMPLETE halt of innovation.

            This is why we have lots of programmers and a massive skills shortage at the same time. An even bigger problem, is that very few people even see the cause.

            This tectonic shift over a 3-4 year period from “Machine Shop Mechanic” to “Parts Changer Mechanics” also led to new technologies to come into existence to compensate for the shift. Version Control Systems with Merging, Scrum, Agile, etc. You have to manage a Chevy dealership much differently than you would manage a team of Formula-One design engineers.
            Welcome to the world of Agile.

            The Cultural failure comes from Corporations that today are wanting something custom, which is now led by a person who has good experience managing Chevy dealership type programmers. True custom software development is way out of their comfort zone.

            Custom development means you fail continuously right up until the very end when it finally works. This is normal, but is TOTALLY anti-Agile where you build in small increments of recognizably working code right up to the end. Doing things that have never been done before means, writing and throwing away code all the time. Programming becomes exploration as much as it is development. There is no equivalent to that in the Agile Methodology. Only somebody who has done that before will have the judgement to be able to say “Yup, everything we just did goes in the garbage but we are making progress, and DEFINITELY headed in the right direction”.

            To anyone else, the first failure proves things are not going well. In fact, Agile and Scrum block those needed “failures” from happening, which means it also blocks the process of innovation. Unfortunately there are very few people left who have the judgement to manage innovation and even fewer people left who could recognize those skills enough to hire them. They are too busy looking for J2EE experience or Scrum, etc.

            I’ve interviewed many places where they said their goal was to build a website that does “xyz”, but after interviewing there, I find that their real goal was to use JBoss 7 and EJB and to build whatever those technologies allows them to do. This is the new state of our industry.

            What is really sad is that I am 56 years old now, and have been programming for 35 years, and I haven’t mentored anybody in 10 years. All my knowledge will leave the industry with me in a few years. Nobody wants to “reinvent the wheel” so who wants to learn from me and what manager wants them to–but the day will come when we will have to reinvent the wheel, and when that day comes, how will all these “part changers” know how to do it?

            The skills shortage will continue to grow and bringing in more people on visas won’t help. In fact, it will likely make the problem worse because it will make it easier to displace the few remaining people who can still mentor and teach this subtle skill that can’t be found in a book.

            Those are my thoughts.

          • @Confused: what a fascinating piece for an article…I wish it could be extracted so we could discuss it separately.
            “The Cultural failure comes from Corporations that today are wanting something custom, which is now led by a person who has good experience managing Chevy dealership [cookie-cutter] type programmers.”

            I think this hits on it pretty well. And maybe that’s the point of many of the arguments. The tech industry has gone toward this in the same way as the auto industry. How many people are interest in having or paying for a custom car? Maybe a less custom product as a certain price-point is all that people are willing to pay for. That means that if we older technologists want to survive, we may have to either find a prestigious software crew for custom development (at great pay and lots of competition) or head to a cookie-cutter tech-dealership making software that is basically a hodge-podge of parts like radios and steering wheels and engines and radiators, thrown into a marvel ready to drive and break down, fixable by a software mechanic at lower pay who can look up answers in a calatog on how to fix things.

            As for Agile, I think you’re generally correct, although I just finished such a contract where we had some great innovation, primarily because our team lead understood that innovation with a great team can make some awesome results. (Unfortunately, I don’t think will be the norm out there.) Oddly enough, even with this trial-and-error approach that I used, we were the only team to complete a successful demo in every sprint…I think the team (and I’ll give myself some major credit) had a lot to do with that.

          • @ConfusedCountry: “If you tele-ported that great mechanic from 1930, and dropped him into a Chevy dealership today, he’d be fired on the first day.”

            On several occasions when I’ve taken my Volvo in for service, I’ve been told: “we had to contact the factory….” These guys aren’t mechanics – they are parts replacers. The car is so complicated (control wise) they are incapable of fixing the car without calling tech support. They literally won’t fix anything, just replace it!

            I’m 63. The way I see it, software development is now gluing together software products with some scripting language. And if these ‘technologies’ (oh how I hate that term) constantly change, what’s the worth of a product built with them? I get the feeling most of the software being produced is now short term junk.

          • ConfusedCountry

            Agreed! I see our software turning to junk at an alarming rate. Things that used to run on 486’s (or less) with 1 meg of ram need gigabytes of memory and quad processors to do the same thing. Everything is glued together! You could argue, “Who cares? machines are super fast now.”, but when you make that argument, what you are really saying is “Thank God the Hardware engineers have gotten good enough to compensate for our total lack of skill”. Isn’t that what is really happening now?

          • @confusedCountry: So we have VM ware running on a 16 core processor, on top of that we have Windows, on top of that .Net runs pseudo code in the CLR. My god we have three layers and gig’s of software to write a hello world app 🙂 Then add the database server and the internet server. Honestly, the complexity is stupid.

          • –Agreed it’s ridiculous.. too many middleware. This is due in part to the “quick code” that is being developed, they interact with only one piece of software, that uses another API to translate… and the great majority are replaced within a couple of years because they either can’t expand, or adapt… But H1B’s are great at creating snippets and pseudo code that is only understandable by the one piece of software (cue MondoDB here)
            …my sister and I used to code the same snippets as kids on a commodore 64 (yes aging myself)… and you young ones out there are probably googling what the heck a commodore 64 is)

          • hehe…I used to love my TRS-80 and VIC-20 then C-128 🙂 Made lots of cool games and wrote articles in national magazines (Creative Computing then Run Magazine, anyone?)

          • ConfusedCountry


            There is another more abstract problem going on here in Corporate America. A corporation is like a battery. If you think if it in terms of physics, creating order, requires an input of energy. Disorder is a natural decay called entropy. If you have a large number of electrons in one side of a piece of copper it will naturally tend to discharge itself until all things are even again.

            There was a time when programmers had very narrow deep experience. In fact most of the corporations had high levels of expertise everywhere. This took a great investments of energy (think money) to create such an organized environment. The more highly organized a company became, the more highly “charged” it became. The company could be said to have static energy or “static money”. This high level of organization represented a very high level of investment from the past.

            Today as Corporations, or Organizations (as they used to be called) slowly decay into lower forms of organization, we begin to see fewer and fewer specialists and more and more generalist. In physics, that looks like a decaying battery.

            If you look at the Corporation as a giant battery, there is profit to be taken from the slow discharge of the organization. As a Corporation decays, it means no new investment need be made into specializing (or charging) the company and it becomes easier and easier to profit from doing the same thing with lower skilled people being paid less money. After all, the corporation is like the battery with a closed circuit, it only needs to run. The laws of physics tells us that when a battery becomes completely “generalized” the battery is dead, and you will see signs that this is happening when its output (or productivity) begins to slow.

            Eventually India’s advantage of supplying cheaper and cheaper labor will dry up. There is a limit to how low you can go before the battery goes dead and the inefficiency becomes too great for the salary difference to matter. Whether you can get gold wire, copper wire, or aluminum, doesn’t matter much once the battery runs dead. It needs to be charged. Period.

            There is also a limit to how far the race to the bottom can go. The battery needs to be charged before it completely dissolves into ashes (bankruptcy), and if you look around, it is a miracle anything works at all. Pretty soon companies will have to make major investments (charging) at great expense. Once a battery goes dead it takes a big investment to bring it back! Gold wire charges faster with less resistance than Aluminum. The companies will pay.

            I think we are rapidly becoming close to that point. Soon it won’t matter at all if somebody in India is cheaper, companies will really have to pay top dollars for the TRUE high skilled worker, and assuming God handed out smart genes to ALL people equally, the disproportionate number of Indians in this field will diminish, and opportunities will become distributed more equally amongst all people.

            At that point, nobody will care about H1-B visas because the opportunities will be handed out to the right people for all the right reasons. No longer will India have an unfair advantage. That advantage will come to an end long before the dollar becomes equal to the rupee because the battery needs to be charged long before it disintegrates into ashes.

            We don’t have that much longer to wait. It is already starting to happen !

          • @ConfusedCountry: “Eventually India’s advantage of supplying cheaper and cheaper labor will dry up. There is a limit to how low you can go before the battery goes dead and the inefficiency becomes too great for the salary difference to matter. Whether you can get gold wire, copper wire, or aluminum, doesn’t matter much once the battery runs dead. It needs to be charged. Period. There is also a limit to how far the race to the bottom can go. The battery needs to be charged before it completely dissolves into ashes (bankruptcy), and if you look around, it is a miracle anything works at all. Pretty soon companies will have to make major investments (charging) at great expense. Once a battery goes dead it takes a big investment to bring it back!”

            Yes, yes, yes. It’s akin to thermodynamics: Entropy will increase until there is no usable energy to produce work. This is called heat death. Baron Kelvin was one of the first to define this as the end of the universe.

            Much like todays software that relies on gig’s of code to run a simple app.

            It’s a shame that all the major corps can think about is exploitation of one group against the other.

          • Good analogy.. You are correct. The trend is turning. And initiatives like “corporate sustainability” have become and continue to be the buzz word of the day. Companies now are beginning to see value in the depth of knowledge held by their employees and creating strategies to track employee development, and leadership transitions in which they are seeking managers who can be mentors and leaders of their teams; training the next level of managers. Many managers today, just hand out tasks, but don’t’ actually lead, mentor, transfer knowledge to their employees partly because they may feel threatened or they really just don’t know how to be a leader/ mentor. In addition, employee development programs (though only a fraction of US companies have them) create a opportunities for employee retraining, or adding skills to existing core competencies and retaining good talent who have depth of company history behind them. They key is to identify those employees who “recharge the batteries” the team or group or be able to take their foundation and find new solutions, new opportunities to increase profits, reduce costs etc. But it starts with management’s support and a change of thinking at the top.

          • ConfusedCountry


            You hit the nail on the head “Many managers today, just hand out tasks, but don’t’ actually lead, mentor,”. Have you noticed the trend. Today managers manage the project instead of managing people.

            It used to be all about getting the right person in the right place doing the right things, but today, management means building huge lists of items on a to do list and handing them out willy-nilly.
            They spend all their time managing the project and not the people.

            Those task lists may be wonderful, but you got a highly skilled Database guy programming in Java, and you top Java programmer fixing stored procedures.

            Today, “Programmers” are treated like generic “Musicians”. I’m a musician, so today I’m scheduled to play Guitar at a wedding, tomorrow, they may need a drummer at a party and I just happen to be available. I’m a Musician, right? Something so stupid like this only makes sense if you manage the project and not the people.

            This “Everybody does everything” mentality has to stop!

            Unfortunately, again, it all started with Y2K. People were generic, and were purchased by the dozen, and if all you are doing is fixing dates, managing the project where everybody does everything made sense.

            Unfortunately, when all the date work was done, and the dot com went bust, all the H1-B’s should have been sent back and the skilled workers who were out on the street from the bust should have been hired back.

            …but that is not what happened. The new incumbents were in, and they weren’t going to let go. They were now the ones who were doing the interviewing and no way were they going to hire the Americans back. In fact, the best way to keep what they got was to send the jobs back to India and safely out of reach of the Americans, and that is what they did.

      • Liberman

        @CONFUSE COUNTRY: You are just bluffing. You are saying the price of Indian Rupee appreciated. 5 years back 1$ = 40 Rupees Currently it is 50 Rupees. You take the last 40 years and then compare the dollar to rupee value you are just bluffing nothing else.

        Then cost-to-quality comment you made. Yes its a fact. What you mean by high quality ? what is the high cost ? Whether it be American or non-American. If we need to pay 4 or 5 times the cost to produce a supporting non core product we should avoid that and outsource. Long term that benefits us as Americans. Think about the iPad or Surface price if that was all made in America. Your monthly saving will not be enough to buy those products now. You are not the only one living in this world. You are only one among them. Please understand.

      • @ROBS | OCTOBER 19, 2012
        Thank you. I’m looking for work by the way. In any respond to your comment on the cultural and social issues:

        We are in a global economy. And in order to progress and grow we need to be aware of the global and cultural differences and we cannot ignore the value obtained by another person’s perspective on the same topic. Think of this scenario… you walk down the street and see a man beating up another man. A woman is lying on the ground looking beaten as well..You call 911 and tell the police what you saw.
        What’s your first thought?
        Man number two is mugging the couple…
        Had you gotten there 3 minutes earlier you would have seen man #1 pushing the woman to the ground and she screamed prompting man #2 to be the hero.
        Had you gotten there just before that, you would have seen the woman stab man #1 for his wallet…
        It’s each perspective offers something different..
        cultural diversity allows businesses to see broader pictures. To identify the criteria that makes global business competition successful.

        I agree (as a immigrant myself), that relocating to a new country has its challenges. And both the host and the newbie need to be educated in the cultural differences of business. Japan and China have extremely different business conduct than the US ranging from meeting someone for the first time, being invited out to a meal, attending a business meeting…do they arrive early or is it culturally acceptable to arrive 15 minutes late and then spend 20 minutes talking about your family or last night’s game? Who sits where? Who does most of the talking? How are objections or different points of view addressed in a meeting?

        There are many factors to learn about a host country and it takes time. In order to help the “newbie” adapt for the sake of the project, WORK AS A TEAM.. Recognize the differences.. don’t let the poor gal/guy flail around like a fish out of water… What is the purpose of their role and how can we ensure that the project is a success? What qualities are they bringing to the table? Maybe they have had success running an operation, or raising funds or whatever… Find out what their strengths are and be the host that you would want to have if you were parachute dropped into a foreign land… It’s not about them or us… it’s about how can we collectively benefit our organizations, our industry… and what opportunities might we be opening up for ourselves in the eyes of the C-Level Execs or our managers? There is much to be gained by learning from others. There are many thing we as locals take for granted.
        I worked with a gal from China and as part of a graduate class assignment I had to interview a foreign worker or someone who had spent years overseas. It’s amazing how different things are in other countries and how we can bring value to our coworkers just by showing compassion and recognizing what limitations/or challenges they are facing in cross-cultural engagements. Americans are not alone on this planet and in order for America to succeed we have to learn to respect, and accept that people from all walks of life have valuable contributions to our department, company and industry. This allows for innovation, “outside the box” thinking and benefits to our companies and to each of us.

  50. I am 50 years old and an IT professional. Thank goodness I am working. A lot of my colleagues that are my age are either not working or working for a lot less money than they have in the past. Hire them. They bring a lifetime of experience. Why bring in people from other countries? Oh, I know. They work a lot CHEAPER!


    I am a foreigner and have come into the US after putting in 12 years of IT experience and 4 years in non-IT. What surprises me is that US corporations allow MS students in jobs but they actually turn out to be fakes. All of them show 4+ years for IT experience and are constantly on web chats with a back-fil person, who feed them resolutions to their work problems. When a US company hires a person, why cannot they do a simple check of what his VISA status is and what is his work experience. They should start doing that. And I too had interviewd a couple where the one who takes the interview on the phone is different from the one who actually shows up for work. What surprises me is that foreign students with MS degrees from the US get jobs easily than Americans passing out of the same college. There are other ways cheating happens on H1 but I mentioned the MS students because they are ready for wages low below the market and in-turn, kill the market.

    • I have personally experienced the same with H1-B workers. Totally incompentent. As have many of my friends. Other associates, time after time have the same experience. Bring in a few US Citizens to fix a total train wreck.
      It is not every H1-B, but it does happen a lot. Simply, I don’t buy your reasoning.

      And excuse me for pointing out the security risk. If a US Citizen steals data to sell or scam, they can go to jail. There is the appearance that when H1-B with no realistic background check come to manage retirement or other important data, they just send them home while the US Citizens suffer. Responsibility and Liability is huge with data. Not every H1-B person is suspect.
      We should hold company board members personally liable. Who are these people that we hand our valuable data to?
      You are probably a good person. However, it is too risky when whe have these unknowns.

    • Listen to Reason

      Yes a lot of mis information, H1B are training on the job, so why nopt Americans….of course they can….these comments you see making suggestions to otherwise are the H1B defending their postions, I yawn….but you are correct.

  52. J. Garcia

    It is sad to see how major American companies such as Microsoft, HP, Intuit, Qualcomm lack the moral integrity and patriotism to care about destroying the standard of living of the country that made them rich. These companies are halting future of upcoming generations of Americans who find themselves discriminated against in their own country in favor of cheap high-skilled Indian and Chinese labor.

    There is no such thing as fair competition, entire departments are being shut down in American territory and shipped to India regardless of individual employee performance and if that was not enough, the few high paying jobs left in American territory are being given to H1 visas because they come at a cheaper price. The sad thing is that this is not only happening in IT, but also in accounting, operations, customer support, and even marketing. This is a systematic trend taking place across all major US corporations and the individual citizen seems unable to stop it.

    As the son of immigrants, I am all for letting hard working immigrants come to this country to pursue the American dream, but not at the expense of the locals and our future as a country. When I was in college my college professor used to argue that this was the way of the future, low skilled labor would be exported to countries with cheap labor, while new high paying jobs based on the new knowledge based economy would be created in this country. The truth is, the social contract was broken a long time ago. Big corporations have no concerns about transferring strategic know-how, critical skills and ultimately wealth creation to foreign countries and its citizens if in the process they can make an extra buck. When it is all said and done, we will be the first generation of Americans in American history that does worse than their parents.

    My question is why has this issue not bubbled up at the top of the agenda for both political parties? Are we letting our voice be heard in defending our current way of living and the future of our children? Why not write to your local congressman/woman today and let them know about how you feel about this issue?

  53. I have a fairly simple solution to Microsoft’s “shortage” issue and the lack of US citizens who are STEM educated. Give Microsoft (and anyone else who needs them) as many H-1B visas as they want. Just one minor thing: to get each visa, the company must supply a full ride scholarship to a qualified technical school for an American born high school student of their choosing. Once the student has graduated, Microsoft (or whomever) has first right of refusal to hire the newly minted programmer. Of course, once that new programmer is hired, the need for the original H-1B visa vanishes. Think of it, in 4 to 6 years we can wipe out all need for H-1B visas! This also makes it possible for the company supplying the scholarship to make sure that they are really getting the skills the employee-to-be claims they have.

    If I were at Microsoft, I would monitor all of the students that were in my scholarship program to make sure they were doing well in school. During the summer I would offer them intern positions to get them further immersed into the “Microsoft Way”.

    Actually I cannot take credit for this idea, I lived it when I was going through college. It worked. I couldn’t have afforded school if it weren’t for that program. PS. The company has never needed H-1B visas, they have been growing their own.

    • Liberman

      Are you saying MNCs should concentrate on such non core things rather than doing business ?
      Government should make it as a part of their policy and give enough importance to STEM education. That is the only way forward. And I think Microsoft is 100% correct with what they say.

      • Listen to Reason

        STEM education? Since when is that a dependency? What nonsense, the bottom line is this, we have up tp 20-25 percent Amercanms who need work. If Microsoft has 10K to blow per H1B then they can take that money for on the job training, very simple. If this stuff was rocket science then certainly the H1B resources in use today would not be qualified.

  54. Here is my experience with this. I worked for more than 15 years for a global multinational in an IT role. My degree is in Mechanical Engineering. I am over 50, and have been unemployed for just over six months. In that time, I have been contacted by a about a half-dozen recruiting firms based in the US where the recruiter was Indian. Three of them coached me to modify my resume to say I had knowledge that I didn’t have. Of course, I refused. I told them to submit my resume as written, and see how it goes. I don’t know if they did or not. Never heard back from them.

  55. Cheap labor brilliant foreign workers stupid Americans cant be trained.
    However American programmers can develop apps without working for anyone upload and sell them.
    Microsoft should pay $50,000 a year for each h1b to be used for social security and medicare and be allowed to import any quantity of h1bs.
    Dumbass American programmers should only work for a minimum of $150,000 a year for Microsoft.

  56. This is a topic that I cant help but blame Americans for.

    Perhaps it’s because I’m from the midwest where many union minded folks still make up a large percentage of the population, but far too many of them have the mindset that a good job is something that you get by knowing somebody or by getting any ole’ four year degree. Despite being informed over and over that the good jobs are getting more and more technical and require a technical degree, they continue to dodge the hard work and investment in their future by avoiding any solid level of math and science.

    Those same folks dont seem to work well with diversity either and find it very difficult to listen to anyone that has an accent, even when that person is trying to help them learn their job!!

    Then, when the companies cant find qualified candidates here in the states and consequently go out and hire foreigners, those same folks are the first ones to cry that they are giving away our jobs.

    I have lived in different parts of the U.S and have witnessed the same pattern.

    I have also witnessed another pattern. That the folks who have the technical, or medical, or science degrees dont seem to be complaining about jobs, or the economy, or the foreigners. Even the older generations who have kept their skills sharp dont seem to be worried as much. I wonder why that is?

    They are actually experiencing a lot of opportunity and income. I see companies heavily competing for these folks. SO much so that I am convinced that the US companies WANT to hire qualified Americans, but simply cannot find the talent!

    The corporate world is becoming very global, very diverse, and very technical. I would really like to see more Americans stop complaining and work hard for that technical degree. Do it together with a friend, with family, or with a tutor, but get it done. Do the math and the sience, it’s our future and there is no way to avoid it!

    • Barry Rindner

      Naive point of view. Ross Perot when he ran for president said that “manufacturing will come back to the US when the Mexican worker gets $7 per hour”. I believe he called it the “large sucking sound”. Using cheap help is as old as the beginnings of the industrial revolution in this country. Sweat shops, child labor, low wages and long hours has always been the goal of any corporation. The fact that most of these practices have been outlawed just meant that the cost of labor would have to increase. If labor increases, either profits fall or price increases. The best of both worlds is to have labor decrease and have prices either stay cheap or cheapen while maintaining ever growing profit margin. Enter “globalization” . With a flood of cheap labor entering the country or sent off-shore, we have watched all the gains of organized labor over the years literary vanish. Koch brothers, Congress and the jerk that is governor of Wis. are just examples of how the top 1% of this county is sticking it to the balance of the 99%. Calling Americans lazy is just the war cry of the far right as so to justify the rape and pillage of the American worker. The average family income in this country is on the decline. We don’t need cultural diversity. Folks need to eat. Bill Gates on one hand has this foundation that tries to help humanity while owning a company that strives to flood our labor markets with as much third world cheap labor that he can get his hands on. Ross Perot was right. Soon we all will be working for $7 an hour.

      • Listen to Reason

        How funny is this, the “Far Right” support H1B, cough cough, Microsoft, Google, Deloitte, Accenture, are far left….regardless, supporting any of this is wrong////blaming a politcal postion is sort of off topic, really has nothing to do with it.

  57. Corporations are the cause of this but first and foremost, we the people are the ROOT cause of this. We buy from them, we support them, we allow it to happen to us.

    Stop supporting the corporations that pull the very noose around your neck. Ride a bike, buy an electric car, downsize your life to eliminate the need for all of your excess intake of resources.

    There are many things we can do, many of which people never give a 2nd thought, why is it that were only given 2 choices for president, who says that Obama or Romney are the ONLY 2 people in the world that can be our president?

    The people with the money do, corporations with big money control you in everything you do. That’s the reason things are the way they are and we the people are the ONLY ones to blame. Look at yourself in the mirror and ask yourself how much money you spent this month that went to companies that are killing our country.

    If your going to argue over problems, first identify what the real problem is.

  58. YepMicrosoftDoesntCare

    I found an earlier comment posted that really hit home.

    I’m going to address this further.

    I am aware of thousands of talented American engineers that are living out of their cars, their whole families are too because they cannot get a job. These aren’t just mediocre engineers. These are experienced and talented women and men who, in many cases, gave their heart and sould to Microsoft. Yet, when there are openings, Microsoft does not contact them. I know this for a fact. These are people who gave Microsoft their stability over the years and helped them release new products or developed systems for internal use that were vital to operations.

    Several years ago, there was an article published on Dice or some other website about this. And it was on King5 TV news up here in the North West. It stated that there were 15,000 unemployed software developement engineers that had lost their homes and were either living out of their car with little possessions they could pack, or they were living temporarily in a tent or with a friend. Like I said, this included single women and men as well as those with children.

    So much for appreciating those that have helped make Microsoft products and great software.

    Come on Microsoft, get responsible and stop tossing talent out in favor of saving a few bucks up front. In the long run, you don’t save any money at all. In fact, you spend more money by hiring new engineers, management, and those who are highly skilled in other fields because of the ramp up time. And even then you end up in firing or laying off those new workers, those that don’t make it.

    I’m all for bringing in new people, but not in the face of turning your back on those that have a proven track record, know the internal Microsoft culture, know all the tools used, know about the many systems that are used, know the people, etcetera. What’s going on? Think about it, even your stockholders will eventually turn their nose up when they realize how much money and talent you are wasting.

    Your wasting not only money, but your wasting away your ethics too. If you don’t care about America anymore, then it will become clearer and clearer to the American people. You can still use workers from other countries as you are growing in leaps and bounds.

    Give the American people the reasons why you turn your back on those that you layed off?

    Look at what you are doing? Would you do this to your family?

    Be honest, don’t hide behind obvious slight of hand rehtoric. Come forward and addres this issue.

  59. Jimmy Lozano

    I found this statement by counfusedcountry:

    —-“” All of a sudden the perfect storm hit. The .dot com when bust, and all those talented Americans were dumped on the street, and all of the Corporate jobs were back-filled by low wage low skilled foreign workers. This is when all of the problems began. “”—-

    Many of the comments from DICE blog’s Articles has this statements and particularly this article has many comments that match with this statement.
    Now I want ask something… why many persons… particularly CEO’s from the big companies are AGREE to Outsource Jobs with the knowledge that they will save money from them, but AT THE SAME TIME they will hurt at the American people who live in USA and they are Unemployed right now…???

    • Why do corporations outsource? Very simple…money, not people. when all you care about is the short-term bottom line, then hiring a bunch of foreigners at 10% the cost, you hire them, regardless of their qualifications. You see that all the time even here in America now: hire kids just out of college because they’re cheaper than highly-skilled, knowledgeable, productive older people who expect higher salaries.
      If the corporation is not as productive as they could be, hire more cheap labor until things work. If you do this enough and the corporation is failing, tell he govt how many Americans will be hurt if you go out of business and get yourself a bailout at tax-payer expense. We saw it in the auto industry, banking industry and a collection of other places. Soon, the computer industry will likely go the same way if the cheap labor doesn’t pan out at making the corporate bigwigs rich.

      • Great article Susan Hall!
        Most miss the point that H1-B (and the variations) give wealthy companies like Microsoft huge Tax Subsidy. The Tax setup hurts our local economies. The Tax Break for the Wealthy is the driving force for both firing US workers and replacing them with H1-B (even at the same price). It is wrong to assume the Contracting Company isn’t charging the same price as a US worker cost.
        H1-B also leads to well documentd FRAUD for political kickbacks. (as shown in the HR Management Training YouTube – how to justify hiring H1-B).

        How many H1-x are now receiving College Graduate Assistant jobs over US Students? Absolutely tons! Your US Tax Dollars at work in public universities whle US Students are saddled with Debt!

        Racism? Are H1-B replacing more minorities? Why should a H1-B be counted as a Minority? Were not 2 of the 911 terrorist admited into the US on H1-B?

        Don’t fix a corrupt, broken system that was based on political graft in the first place. Abolish H1-B. Shame on Bill Gates for putting dollars ahead of individual morality.

      • Jimmy Lozano

        I’m totally agree with the comments by Robs, and also, I’m agree with the comments from Silver…
        But, I’ll ask a Silver: Do you know how many congressman in the senate voted TO NOT TAX at the big companies who are Outsourcing Jobs right now…???
        I want made this question, because to me if the senate WILL TAX all Companies with the same rate with Local Jobs and Outsourced Jobs, I’m very sure that all Outsourced Jobs will end soon.

      • @ROBS… This article: discusses the fallacy of outsourcing cost savings. Yes the hourly rate per outsourced employee may be cheaper, but the total cost per project has proved much more expensive than doing it in house. Take for example, an american employee costing $100/hour versus $20/hour outsourcing… very appealing right? Sure… now lets look at the total cost.

        $30 — coder in India…
        $30 — US project manager/liaison to communicate with a project manager in India/China
        $20– project manager in India who communicates with US PM.
        Total 1 hour cost for project: $70… still cheaper than 1 US worker who has both coding skills and PM skills (by default developers in the US are usually given PM tasks as well– at least in my experience)

        Combining the costs of revisions for all team members: $20+30+20 = $70 X 3 = $210… 3 is a random number of revisions that are required to fix code or fix requirement understanding.(my experience)
        Now add the cost of delays and longer project timelines for deliverables (cost to business for waiting on solution.. missed earning.. competitor rollouts.. lagging in the industry).
        Now add stagnanat innovation and quality issues… Because working with an outsourced firm must hold the technology in place in order to achieve “system stability”

        Is it really cheaper? No… When you look at manufacturing industry, there are added costs of transport over water, whether by boat or airplane..then to distribution facilities via truck or rail.. then to retailers/ sales distribution channels.

        This is the reason GM, GE, Ford, GalaxE, STIHL, Sleek Audio and many others are bringing there productions.

        –Just giving a perspective. Each project must be evaluated for total cost.. not just employee hourly wage. The issue of the article is bringing H1B tot he states instead of hiring local. While they may prove benefits… in an economy of high local unemployment it is not the best solution.. By not hiring Americans, companies are tying the hands of their sales. Out of work Americans can’t go shopping.. they are cutting cable bills, phone bills, trips to the mall, road trips..

        It’s great that a company can provide knowledge from a global labor pool.. and if they are only going to sell their products overseas, then the American spending is irrelevant.. but is that really the case? The point is Americans need to go back to work to put food on their tables and help the US economy grow.. everyone benefits. It’s a cause-effect relationship..

      • Jimmy Lozano

        OK Anita… If I’m agree with everything you post in this comment… and supposedly the CEO’s from the big companies who are Outsourcing Jobs right now THEY KNOW exactly what you post in this comment… WHY THE PEOPLE ARE STILL AGREE TO OUTSOURCE JOBS…???

        • @Jimmy Lozano.. There are many reasons and I think it depends on the industry. It is the million dollar question!. Here are some of my thoughts:
          If a company is truly tracking the value/benefit of the outsource and can quantify total value- chain costs and the actual savings, they may be better off with the outsource.

          For example, if making a small component of a product that has quality controls in at the manufacturing plant, shipping costs are minimal because the product doesn’t weigh much, and product forecasting accounts for delays, then it may very well be cheaper to pay a Chinese worker $3/hour to make the component.

          Or maybe there is a specific technique or core component that only exists in a certain area and having that unique piece or technology is the key differentiation factor among competitor products.

          – Example: I’m a manufacturer of kitchen counter tops and I know of only one company in the world in a small village of Italy, that does wood inlay designs into marble. No one else has this skill, technique or capability. The cost may be very expensive, but the competitive advantage that I now have is uniqueness and I can charge more for my product. I may be operating at a lower operational efficiency, but the increase in sales is greater than the decrease in cost ratios. In this case, I am willing to make the trade off and pay more money for production because I can gain customers by offering something no one else does. And the little Italian shop has a, exclusivity contract with me that they will only make this product for me. — In this case outsourcing is a benefit to both the outsource and the local company.

          Some companies do it because “everyone is doing it… so should I” .. Or the perception that outsourcing yields greater benefits exists for the industry. — I can say, I make my products using the best selected employees from around the world – allowing companies to make claims that their company is “forward thinking” and innovative, and larger.. so they must be the best…

          What many companies fail to do is accurately track the total cost, and they continue to outsource because of contracts or other factors (licensing, trademarks, knowledge share, R&D cost share among others). This is one of the many reasons, the trend is flipping and more companies are bringing manufacturing jobs to local communities and many companies are seeing operational and cost benefits of in-house development.

          “Insourcing” also feeds on the local population’s perception of the company. It may be more costly to produce locally.. but there is a positive sentiment trending that if a company can say “Made in America”, that consumers will select them and be loyal to them translating to increasing sales.. The increased sales, and social standing in the community enhances product loyalty, that outweighs the added costs of in house production.

    • @Jimmy Lozano: “Now I want ask something… why many persons… particularly CEO’s from the big companies are AGREE to Outsource Jobs with the knowledge that they will save money from them, but AT THE SAME TIME they will hurt at the American people who live in USA and they are Unemployed right now…???”

      An excellent question. My answer is that we are living through the death of capitalism. We are in the process of consuming our own people. What is a country but the citizens?

      Capitalism, free markets, and private ownership certainly built the US. However over many years the capital has become concentrated in larger and larger corporations. These corporations now wield a tremendous amount of power. Unfortunately, this leaves the individual virtually powerless.

      The rejection of perfectly good STEM workers, just because they don’t have the exact skills is causing a great deal of human suffering. Consider the amount of money it costs for depression, alcoholism, divorces, entitlements, for long term unemployed people. Think what it does to our society. It is a tragedy.

      Then on this forum, us American Citizens have to argue why we don’t want foreigners to come here and loot our jobs. Notice that countries like Germany and Japan don’t allow this H1-B stuff.

  60. I remember back in the early 1990’s. The defense industry was contracting and thousands of engineers and programmers were out on the street. Meanwhile, the engineering society IEEE was constantly beating the drum that there was a shortage of engineers. Hardly a week went by when they didn’t claim this, and how we needed to let in more foreigners. It became apparent that the people running the society and pushing for more entry were academics. After a massive push-back from rank and file membership, the IEEE stopped their cheerleading, for the moment.

    This is much the same, and just as much wrong. Anyone actually working in the industry knows full well that there is no shortage, yet companies and some academics continue to try and sell the view that there is a shortage. It simply isn’t true. What is true is that a steady supply of foreign workers holds down pay for people in the industry. I’m not sure I believe there are two pay scales, but I do believe that market conditions with an influx of foreigners result in lower pay for everyone. If Microsoft truly wanted to fill these positions, they’d raise the pay until someone took them. It’s easier to whine about the market not having enough of a cheap influx.

    As far as grad students becoming most foreign, there are a large number of reasons for that. Many grad students I’ve met are from well-to-do families. Others want to come to the US and this is the way they find to do it. Americans bail out for two reasons, one is that graduate students basically get treated like crap for little pay which is hard to accept, and the second is that engineering and sciences are not where the money is anymore. Of the brightest people I went to school with at Caltech, a small minority are still in engineering and the sciences. Stale engineering money and the lack of research funding has led most to go into law or business. Such a productive place for the brightest to be. As long as university funding continues down this path, Americans will try to find more profitable places for their careers, and I as a parent will not encourage my kids to follow me into engineering.

  61. Jimmy Lozano

    Ok… Anita H
    Let’s fact what you said:
    —-“” Some companies do it because “everyone is doing it… so should I” .. Or the perception that outsourcing yields greater benefits exists for the industry. — I can say, I make my products using the best selected employees from around the world – allowing companies to make claims that their company is “forward thinking” and innovative, and larger.. so they must be the best… “”—-

    To me is the only VALID reason that the CEO’s from the big companies are Outsourcing Jobs Right Now… but, when Robs said this:
    —-“” Why do corporations outsource? Very simple…money, not people. when all you care about is the short-term bottom line, then hiring a bunch of foreigners at 10% the cost, you hire them, regardless of their qualifications. “”—-

    To me is very clear that the big companies are MASKING the real true of: Outsourcing Jobs = more money to companies = Badly Damaging USA Resident Unemployed.

    • @Jimmy Lozano — unfortunately the issue cannot be boiled down that simplistically..
      Yes companies do it for the bottom line… for their reputation in the industry and to gain competitive advantage.. and it could be seen as it is at the cost of US employment.

      And as I have stated, there are instances where outsourcing is a great fit. In other cases it’s not.
      But the US has always been very short-term. They want to show their shareholders profits today. And the “today” always take precedents over the tomorrow of 10-20-30 years. It is the reason that the US has fallen behind in many technologies and industries. GreenRoofs for example have been in use for 50 years in Europe, where here in the states, they are still struggling to succeed. The real reason why… because it’s expensive to install and benefits are only seen 20-25 years out. Why are more coal plants not converted to WTE (Waste to Energy) plants.. because ROI is 20 years out. They don’t care that investing today creates long term benefits.

      Other countries have continued to think of tomorrow… teaching their kids from age 5 how to do math and science.. how to speak other languages, and how to compete.. and now are competed for the jobs of today. Company’s hire the H1B’s because it’s a short term commitment and they can save money today.. What they overlook is the benefit of long-term employees who can not only do the work, but also add valuable company knowledge, industry knowledge, customer knoweldge/trusted relationships etc.. Every time a long term employee leaves or is replaced they take with them a piece of value that a short term employee can’t achieve. — So there are many causes and many ramifications of outsourcing and/or short term thinking.

      • Jimmy Lozano

        But… Anita H…. everything you said in this comment is talking why the CEO’s has the right to Outsource jobs… Get more money QUICKLY to the profits of the shareholders…, but at the same time they are Damaging at the USA Resident without giving them money through the jobs.
        I’m some kind agree to give H1B’s to work HERE in USA, because if they living here they will spend money here in a long term will be good for the economy of this USA Country… But when you Outsourced the Job to other country what happen with the “spend” money of the workers??? in some point will return to USA…???
        The Only way to see the return of the money to USA is in the hands of the shareholders of the big companies, but what happen if those shareholders WANT SPEND THIS MONEY IN OTHER COUNTRIES… THAT IS THE BIG PROBLEM.

  62. I very much appreciate being able to hear both sides of this discussion. As an American in the tech industry, I understand the American side (and have for over 10 years.)
    However, I have yet to hear a convincing argument from any of the H1B visa candidates to convince me that:
    1) They are better than I am at the jobs they are seeking
    2) They understand our culture enough to make things work as well as I do
    3) They can speak the language communicate as well as I can (as evidenced by the many poor sentences assembled by many of them)
    4) That I should give up my job, go on unemployment, let them do my job (apparently not as well) and hope that my life gets better without being able to feed my family or pay for my mortgage or drive my car with increasingly more expensive gas.

    My govt is surely not going to help me out as evidenced years ago when I was unemployed and seeking medical assistance for my newborn baby…but I had a few dollars in the bank (well, a few thousand) so I was not eligible to collect from the system that I had been paying into for year–when I was finally in need of it) They told me that as soon as the money was gone they would help me…which I guess means that my house foreclosed and my broken car was abandoned.

    That leaves my with my paltry saving, which should have been higher except that every time I got a job, I was outsourced or downsized–not for lack of skill or personality–so back on unemployment. So do I just need to finish creating the next Angry Birds to be able to make ends meet? Maybe get yet another job to pay the bills (at 1 point I had 4 jobs simultaneously!)

    So why is it good for me to sit unemployed while H1B recipients take my job away from me?

    • @RobS: “1) They are better than I am at the jobs they are seeking 2) They understand our culture enough to make things work as well as I do 3) They can speak the language communicate as well as I can (as evidenced by the many poor sentences assembled by many of them) 4) That I should give up my job, go on unemployment, let them do my job (apparently not as well) and hope that my life gets better without being able to feed my family or pay for my mortgage or drive my car with increasingly more expensive gas. ”

      Well it’s apparent you are a xenophobe and a racist and an ‘angry’ person. We should welcome these visitors, and give them our jobs, homes, whatever. We welcome diversity. I invite you to live in a cave, right next to my cave.

    • I believe it is just another form of age discrimination and a failure to make a commitment to train and educate a very experienced aging American workforce. As the workforce in the U.S. ages the company’s are “canning” the very trainable older workforce in favor of the less expensive, young, “state” educated foreign worker. The American worker, works longer hours than their overseas counter parts and take less vacation on average. At the same time these older Americans are going back to school in droves investing in their own education only to see jobs still going over seas. Now corporations like Microsoft are adding to the insult by bringing outsourcing onshore! Young Americans are discouraged from entering the IT field having grown up in a decade during which they watched Microsoft, IBM and other IT based corporations out source their parents jobs.

      • ConfusedCountry

        @Ron, …which is why I stopped telling my kids to study computers about 10 years ago, which is why we now how fewer people studying IT. The cause and effect is so obvious, and we are now caught in a vicious spiral.

  63. It’s a double edge sword. MS and any business from IT to Manufacturing have to get the most bang for there buck or there lunch will be eaten. I gripe and cuss Exxon at the pump when I fill up but when I get home and check my E-Trade account I get PO if my XOM stock isn’t performing. I cry with my Neighbor who worked for GE who got his job off-shored and then check my GE stock to see if’s its going up, Are you with me? The Managers who manage your 401k scream at the Companies I just mentioned for double digit returns and if they don’t off-shore on the cheap, there competitor will eat there lunch, Dinner and Breakfast! Its a nasty by-product of Capitalism. It’s just the way it is. However, you can do something to insulate yourself as I have. As a DBA, I continually learn whats hot and now it’s BIG Data. I’m working on Mega Terabyte project. I also try to keep my skills on the 3 main RDBMS.. ie Sybase, Oracle and MS SQL server. It’s hard but that’s just the way it is and none of us are going to change it. But we can change ourselves.

  64. After reading quite a few of the comments, many of which are very good, I will say that Silver and Doug_B seem to have some fairly right on thoughts.

    I have been in the industry since 1990. I worked at Microsoft in the mid 1990s for five years and have a number of friends who stayed on with MS up until around 2006. Since I left MS I have worked at several large companies and over the years there have been progressively more and more H1B employees. What I have found time after time is there are maybe %25 that are worth their salt. The rest provide little benefit to getting quality work done. The rework that must be done because of these individuals who mostly are taught by rote and are unable to think beyond a specific task ends up costing companies as much or more then if they hired qualified applicants.

    I have no problem with individuals coming from other countries and working here if they truly have something to offer and to the extent that it doesn’t reduce jobs for qualified Americans who, yes, many had immigrant parents, but also have put into this country.

    Both our government and large companies have been selling out America and Americans since the late 90s. But also we as Americans came to expect wages that were over inflated to some extent. Sort of like the housing market in a number of areas in the country. The pendulum has now swung to the other extreme. The unions became so demanding in the late 90s and early 2000s that it became very costly. When a person on the assembly line is making $60.00 based on wage, medical and retirement benefits that is insane. So they started building manufacturing plants overseas, then came H1Bs and the off shoring of many other positions.

    Yes, companies want to make a quick buck and the government, well let’s not go there now. Half of these companies are no longer run or owned by Americans and many of the Americans that do control these companies do not care about the effect on our economy as they are so well off it won’t affect them. I hope that the pendulum will swing back to at least the middle because if it does not we will not have a healthy economy and eventually our social structure and way of life will be affected for the worst.

  65. I find so many of the comments here about simply finding and training Americans for these “IT” jobs very naive. I’ve been in the software engineering profession for 25 years, all in Silicon Valley. I spent the first half as a developer and the latter half in management. I spent about 10 years of that total working for Microsoft out of their Silicon Valley Campus.

    I can tell you as someone that has been a hiring manager since 2000 that good developers are few and far between, regardless of whether they are Americans or visa based immigrants. You can teach a reasonably intelligent person how to do basic programming, but you need a truly specialized intellect to be a good software engineer. The costs of carrying a mediocre level of skill on your staff is very high, as pooly designed code is very expensive to enhance and maintain.

    The people that have brains that are well wired for software engineering are fairly rare amongst the general population. These same types of minds do well in other fields such as law, finance, business analysis and so forth. Generally, not enough of the Americans that are born with the right minds going into computer science and that leaves us with a local shortage.

    Meanwhile, in countries like India and China, and more recently areas like the former soviet block countries and South America are all seeing the opportunities in the industry and making this line of study a more popular option. So a larger number of those suited for this profession are getting the necessary education. Many of those then look to leverage that in the most lucrative places, such as the US.

    I can tell you as someone constantly in roles that require hiring an dgrowing teams that it’s one of the most difficult problems that companies are faced with. You just can’t find enough good people. You can find plenty of people with decent resumes but that fail miserably when put in front of whiteboard to do basic design and algorithms. This is the case whether they are Americans or immigrants. The reality is that when you find someone good, you pounce, whether they are citizens or on visa.

    When you are a company with a large, world known name like Microsoft, you have a couple things to deal with. For one, the name alone will get you tons of applicants from outside the US. Second, you have the economies of scale around recruiting in multiple markets, working with the INS to process visas, and so forth. It’s a viable solution to fill so many positions.

    That said, I can tell you that as a Microsoft manager I was always thrilled to see American resumes that looked halfway decent and would give them even higher consideration due to the higher likelihood that they would mesh well with the culture and not have communication issues. But there just weren’t ever enough qualified people to meet the high bar that the company sets. I can also tell you that Microsoft has a very good culture of just hiring the best engineers and not worrying about domain knowledge or current expertise. Great engineers pick up new platorms quickly. Mediocre engineers even with very deep specific expertise do not typically get beyond medicore. Because the numbers of visa candidates are much larger, statistically it means that you will find more of the capable engineering minds within and that is what happens.

    If you don’t believe this, I encourage you to see for yourself. Pick any random smallish Silicon Valley start up of say 100-200 employees size. There are thousands of them to choose from! Go to their website and look at the job openings. You’ll likely see a disproportionate amount of software engineering positions open and unfilled. If that’s not enough for you, call up their hiring managers or recruiters listed on the website and spend 5 minutes talking to them about the quantity and quality of applicants that they are getting, whether US or visa based. You’ll find what those of us in the industry already know very well — there’s an absolute dearth of talent to meet the ever growing demand. If it were so easy as to just grab above average IQ people and train them into productive developers we’d be doing it already!

    • The Heretic

      Zym, you are delusional if you think that IT labor market dynamics are that simple. There are plenty of people out there that you would love to hire, but the labor market is dysfunctional. The entry and exit costs are too high. The technical recruiter and resume mill business models are inappropriate for the goal of putting talent and managers in the same room. Health care cost control strategies exclude older workers. HR hiring gimmicks exclude viable workers. Salaries are too low to cover the costs of the learning curve and even if you think of them as sunk costs the skills expire before becoming profitable to learn. Microsoft’s own development life cycle is a major component in the dysfunctional nature of the software developer labor market.

      I personally know at least ten top of the field software engineers that are currently looking for greener pastures that you will never meet because the labor market is so dysfunctional. The talent that you are seeking is there and leaving the industry in droves because job search costs are prohibitively high and most job search strategies are generally ineffective.

      You can look down from your ivory tower and never see the carnage that is the IT labor market that you help create and maintain, but if you come to this site you are going to hear about it. Those positions that go unfilled are going unfilled for a very valid economic reason; wages are not allowed to float above the cost of supply. Consequently, your development costs are controlled but shortages are perpetual. Like everything in economics profit margins come at a cost and sometimes those cost exceed a viability threshold.

      • SouthRoad

        @the heretic

        Brilliantly said! The very top skilled people can’t get through the paper pushers who only push resumes based on the number of buzzwords in the heading. If we use an analogy to music, it is like a band searching for a great guitar player.
        Eric Clapton submits his résumé with 40 years ONLY playing guitar, but the recruiters filter him out immediately, because my high school music teacher submits his résumé which shows that he has dabbled with 6 different instruments yet has no real skill at any. The stupid paper pusher perceives the dabbler as the more highly skilled because he has more buzzwords and submits him to the audition!

        Next the hiring manager hands him a guitar and says “you suck! We must have a skills shortage”.

        The problem in the industry is that the recruiters who know absurdly NOTHING about the industry are the ones who are deciding who is qualified and who is not!

        This is like the music industry deliberately selecting deaf people to filter out the qualified musicians to be submitted to the record labels!

        It is a self inflicted wound.

      • ConfusedCountry

        @The Heritic

        Brilliantly said!

        The problem is that the really talented people can’t get through the paper pushers who haven’t got a clue.

        To draw an analogy to the music industry, it is like having a band searching for a really skilled guitar player. Eric Clapton submits his resume with 40 years experience of ONLY playing guitar.

        At the same time, my high school music teacher submits his resume and shows that he has dabbled in 10 different instruments.

        The clueless recruiter considers my high school teacher as more highly qualified than Eric Clapton because he has more “buzzwords” on his resume and submits the high school teacher instead. The band doing the audition hands him a guitar to play, listens to how terrible he is and then says “You suck!. There must be a skills shortage. We can’t find anybody who is good”.

        We now have an industry where the people who are LEAST qualified and know NOTHING about the computer industry are the ones who are deciding who is qualified and who is not.

        It is like having the Music industry hire a bunch of deaf people to filter out the good musicians from the bad, so they end up doing the only thing they can do.
        They select the people who are most profitable to themselves.

        The recruiting process wasn’t always this bad. It used to be that my recruiter acted more like an Agent. He placed me in this job, remembered me, heard back from the hiring manager, knew my skills, and then found new work for me in my next job based on feedback from both me AND the manager. Recruiters were “agents”.

        Today, just as quickly as the talented programmers have been tossed out of the industry and replaced by cheap labor, so have the recruiters. The really good “agents” are all gone and they have been replaced by a bunch of paper pushers mostly from India who know nothing about our culture and remember nobody.

        I was once working with a recruiter until I read his LinkedIn profile and found out he was a high school student in India! This is how low our industry has become.

        Of course there’s a “skills shortage”. The industry is a mess, and that mess was caused by the race to the bottom.

        Corporations caused this problem. If Microsoft thinks they can solve this problem by increasing the size of their net, they will only get more unqualified people from around the world.

        You are so right when you said our computer industry is “dysfunctional”.

        Unfortunately, I see no way to fix this mess. The people we have to depend on to fix this mess, are the very low skilled workers that are causing the problem in the first place.

        Entropy will continue to take it’s course. The “Everybody does Everything” mentality, will slowly dissolve into “Nobody knows Anything”, and the industry will likely collapse, with some companies going bankrupt when their IT departments screech to a halt.

        As we know from Physics, the only way to reverse Entropy is with tremendous investments of energy (money), and that is not going to start happening until it is way too late.

        • @Confused Country: “You are so right when you said our computer industry is “dysfunctional”. Unfortunately, I see no way to fix this mess…Entropy will continue to take it’s course. The “Everybody does Everything” mentality, will slowly dissolve into “Nobody knows Anything”, and the industry will likely collapse, with some companies going bankrupt when their IT departments screech to a halt. As we know from Physics, the only way to reverse Entropy is with tremendous investments of energy (money), and that is not going to start happening until it is way too late.”

          I believe we are witnessing the collapse of “consumption based capitalism”. Our country is now discarding it’s own people. Call it short sighted, greed, control, power, it’s all converging to create a special kind of hell.

          Think about this: how much is invested in a STEM graduate? Besides the tuition, the entire infrastructure of a university is years in the making with state and federal aid, plus think of all the professors that teach the classes, and the text books. Additionally all the employers that one works for and have been given knowledge and practical experience. I would say that’s worth a considerable sum.

          So after all this, some no-nothing middle manager, tosses that all out the window! They can’t see that they are throwing away the product of their country. These people are fools. This is a country in decline.

          The Indian’s don’t know what they’re getting in to.

      • I’m not familiar with what this mythical force called the labor market is or how it is a barrier. You speak of some powers that are purposely trying to screen out qualified candidates from companies that need the engineering talent for their very existence. It sounds quite Machiavellian indeed, except that there is not motive to do as you claim.

        Yes, at large companies like Microsoft there are layers of recruiters whose job it is to source good candidates. Yes, part of that job is to attempt to filter out those who appear unqualified by what their resume presents. In that process, unfortunately, some good candidates with misrepresentative resumes are washed out. But I can assure you from my time there that I never saw or heard of a single case of biasing towards age or nationality when we always had more open positions to fill than we were ever able to. If anything, the filters were set rather conservatively causing myself and other hiring managers to need to screen maybe 4 out 5 unqualified candidates out via 30 minute phone conversations with them. These conversations an subsequent in house interviews are very costly for the teams to hold, so believe you me, when we found good candidates we were VERY motivated to move to offers.

        That said, I moved on from Microsoft several years ago and am on my 3rd company since. In each, hiring has been paramount to our success. In the last two the companies have been so small as to not use this system that you claim exists to screen out candidates. Hiring managers are required to go through the list of applicants that apply for the jobs, and we are again, very motivated to fill those roles quickly wiht qualified people. It’s illogical to claim that we would apply some mythical, discriminatory filter if that would be counter to our goals of getting our teams built.

        In these cases, when we have used “recruiters” it’s bringing in contract agencies to INCREASE the flow of candidates because we aren’t getting enough direct applicants. They do so by increasing the visibility of the positions giving even more opportunity for applicants to see and apply.

        There are many of these small companies in Silicon Valley right now, and they are suffering from a dearh of good candidates that can write good, clean, solid code. It’s extraordinarily simple to go out to LinkedIn, JobVite, Dice, TheLadders, Monster, and so forth to find hundreds of openings that are free to apply for directly. If one focused on smallish companies I can assure you that hiring managers will be the ones looking at your applications and not this dysfunctional market force that you speak of performing some focused filtering of super experienced americans out. If you’re sitting on a few decades of experience and don’t get responses from more than say 5 of such applications, then I’d take a good look at my resume and see if there’s not something horribly wrong with how I’m presenting myself because that type of experience is being seriously sought after. Or work with a recruiter to help you on the presentation side.

        I’m hiring right now for some rather senior level engineers that know how to scale very large web sites for high performance and availability. If that’s your skill set and you aren’t finding bites, then let me know here and I’ll make sure that we talk!

      • the heretic

        Zym, I’m quite aware that most IT managers don’t even have a basic understanding of labor market dynamics. It is very obvious. All one has to do is look at the sorry state of the IT labor market in this country. It really is self evident.

        So, let me give you the basics. A shortage or dearth as you put it can only occur at a given price. Perpetual shortages can only occur when prices are manipulated, cornered, and maintained below the cost of production. We have had perpetual shortages for close to twenty years. In all that time, employers were doing without and complaining about shortages AT THE PRICE BEING OFFERED.

        In a functional labor market, when there are shortages in supply, prices rise and incentivize higher production levels. New entrants flock into the labor market and shortages generally turn into over supplies in a relatively short period of time. Shortages and over supply are generally short lived as the market struggles to find an equilibrium price. Managers like yourself have a vested interested in having the cost of labor float at equilibrium.

        You ask a very valid question, why would you do this to yourselves on purpose? The answer lies in an old adage passed down between generations of aerospace engineers, “Never attribute to malfeasance that which can easily be explained by incompetence.” Bean counters make very poor managers and engineers promoted to management are only one step below. It seems that for decades engineers have been engineering around poor management and we still managed to dominate the skies for decades.

        Now let’s start an abbreviated version of the means by which natural market forces have been circumvented in the STEM labor markets. It is said that, employers want and employees need. This adage is meant to describe the natural disadvantage that has always existed in labor markets. In economic circles the term price setters and price takers is used to describe the same coercive relationship. Under the best of circumstances labor markets favor the employers. Consequently, employers have a higher level of responsibility for helping to maintain a healthy equilibrium price and as a direct consequence, a healthy supply of qualified labor. Unfortunately, today’s employers have disavowed their responsibility and in some cases have maliciously circumvented it for fun and profit. But, if you prefer, incompetence is also a valid explanation.

        The internet has change the world and the business models that grew up around it are causing massive social and economic problems. Resume mills that cater exclusively to employers and their agents (recruiters) have shifted costs so severely that employer price control is perpetual. Those technical recruiters that you cherish so much have inadvertently created a labor impaction with their new found power so severe that new entrants into the market cannot get in.

        The reason employers use recruiters is because the recruiter business model serves them well by externalizing costs and tenderizing their victims to accept lower wages. You don’t pay unless an individual produces results so you can effectively finance an army on the cheep. Make the commission high enough and you have a massive army of unscrupulous salesmen scowling the labor market for a scarce commodity over fishing the fishing grounds and crashing the resource. There activity and sociopathic pursuit of commissions externalizes the costs of job search and decimates the nursery of future recruits. This is what you are complaining about just a different perspective.

        Let’s look at the model a little closer. You are financing your army with reduced wages to begin with. By that I mean that if you are willing to pay a software engineer $135k for their talent. After deducting the $35k commission you must now pay the engineer $100k and after a year’s depreciation you get a $35k wage reduction; win win. That is not the only benefit you receive. Your agents don’t get paid unless they find you someone with the skill set you are looking for at the price you are setting. Remember price setters and price takers? Anyone with the skill set you require asking more is useless to your agents. As are result, your agents tenderize them mercilessly. They are rude, they psychologically demeaning, and by wasting the time of professionals they drive the cost of job search into the stratosphere. If a professional is getting paid $65 an hour and wastes a thousand hours a year looking for better digs with no results your agents have effectively cost them $65,000 dollars in lost opportunity costs. Is it any wonder the Dice’s own survey is showing that software engineer job movement is on the decline?

        There are people with the skill set that you are looking for who don’t want to work for you increasingly out of spite because of your attitude. They are pulling themselves off the market and staying put because your agents are a reflection of you. Malfeasance or incompetence the perception of your actions is the same.

        A patient tells his doctor that it hurts when he pokes himself in the eye. The doctor looks at him strangely and tells him to stop doing it; problem solved. I usually charge $350 an hour for that advice and you get it for free. I must like you. LOL

    • Informed

      Zym, I worked at Microsoft and honestly, you are just spreading Microsoft propoganda.

      You are so off base here.

      High bar yu set, hwo insulting, and then you trun around and hire H1B that can;t even speak properly, who write sloppy code, where it takes 3-4 of them to produce what an American can do, I have over 30 years in thsi business, with a resume that kept be working during this depression, recommendations, references, and so on, and never have I been offered a position at Microsoft, and the contract work I did procure was insulting to my intelligence working for managers like you without experience or a bar.

      Do not tell us anymore, we all know here that you cannot possibly believe what you wrote, its so off base.

      Keep you hiring practices and your misinformation, and let’s see Microsoft decline as it has.

      I can meet high bars in the other fortune 500 but not Microsoft? Oh I forgot, I want a market rate.

      i recently had MCS on a project at a rate of $295 per hour, for an H1B, who I had to direct and who constantly had to call his group for answers, yea, a really good bar you have. He was probally calling the India support center while my project was billed at $295 per hour and MS India charges $10 to MCS cost center.

      I cannot beleive you wrote such an insensitive, offensive comment about a high bar. I would like you to make these comments to my face..

    • Proud Paulbot

      Being as my undergrad GPA was only a 3.1–not godawful, but not fantastic (unlike many of my classmates, I didn’t cheat, because I felt that cheating was wrong)–I’d buy the notion that I’d never have been an extraordinary programmer or software engineer. Perhaps, as you said, this simply isn’t where my talent lies.

      But here’s what I don’t get: the notion that, armed with a Math/CIS degree coupled with years of professional work experience as a secretary, paralegal, med-legal transcriptionist, editor/proofreader and copywriter, there is absolutely NOTHING that I could be trained to do. Nothing at all. Not even technical writing.

      I already talked about this on another thread, but I’ll bring it up again: I can pass a criminal background and drug test. I dress and groom myself appropriately for interviews. I have no visible tattoos, no piercings except in my ears, and my hair is a normal color; I’ve been told that I “look” really conservative. I’ve done P90X and Insanity, and I’m running a half-marathon next month, so I don’t look decrepit. I couldn’t pass for 20, but I could pass for 30. In the workplace, I keep to myself and concentrate on my work. I don’t mouth off to the boss or cause trouble with co-workers. When I’m finished with my pile of work, I go to the boss and ask for more. I ask questions, show initiative and express a desire to learn more and grow. I’m dependable; I show up on time, I don’t leave early, and I don’t call off sick or otherwise ask for time off on a frequent basis.

      My resume has no typos, it’s not set using weird fonts, and I don’t do stupid things like include my photo. I’ve had it looked at by three or four different sources. None of them thought it needed much work; their only suggestions were subjective style points, like whether to put my education at the top or the bottom.

      So I’ve got a degree, I’ve got work experience, and I’ve got the soft skills that employers CLAIM they want. Yet I’ve been told I’m unemployable because I don’t have the “right” experience and skill set. That’s how I ended up walking dogs. It was the only type of job I could get, walking dogs for a functionally illiterate drug addict. Eventually he fired me because he decided to make his live-in girlfriend walk dogs for him for free (I’m not making this up), and I struck out on my own. I’m competing against him and other lowlifes who cannot read, write or spell, and who barely managed to get through high school–if they got through it at all. These people couldn’t get jobs at Wal-Mart even when the economy was good. (It’s really quite frightening just who is taking care of people’s pets. I wouldn’t hire most of my competitors to take care of my garbage cans.)

      THIS is really the only thing I can do? I don’t buy that. I am convinced that, in a normal economy, I could have been a technical writer. Because I can write, someone would have hired and trained me on whatever software it is they use to produce their user manuals.

      • @Paul: You are suffering from what I call the ‘distillation process’. Sadly, around 1995 this crazy laundry list of ‘skills’ (how I have come to hate that word) started to eliminate good people. It used to be that if you had a degree plus some general experience, you had a good chance of getting a job. The senior staff would help you get started, answer questions, etc. Now many companies don’t have anyone who is senior, or who knows anything in depth. This leads to “finding the person with exactly the right skills” – cause we don’t know squat about our own business.

        @Zym, if you would hire people with decades of solid programming experience, and point them in the direction you want to go, you will get there. The whole problem is that you’re looking for the ‘expert’ to appear. How does the expert become an expert? I guess through a chain of events at a previous job, he picked up the skills. So you want to take the skills that some other company paid for? You are not willing to ‘grow your own expert’.

      • @doug_b – I’m not looking for the type of expert that you probably think that I am. I discount domain knowledge in a particular technology as a prerequisite and instead focus on more generic algorithmic problem solving, systems architecture type of questions, and questions that show critical thinking around what approaches to take in light of the combination of technological and business problems presented. I’ve seen people with 2 years of experience show the right aptitude for these things and I’ve seen people with 30 years show the same. The only difference between the two is that when interviewing someone with more experience I look for them to provide examples of situations that they’ve worked where they’ve been asked to use similar skills.

        Say what you want, but whenever I’ve built my own team from scratch using my standards they have always been amongst the highest performing and most cohesive teams in the division. I absolutely standby my stance on being patient to find the best because it’s an investment that pays off in spades in the end. When thinking investment, I don’t blink at the thought of bringing on someone with the right mental skillset into a position that requires a 3 month learning curve in the particular technology to become productive. In the end, these same people after a year or two become the experts that those with many more years of domain knowledge, yet less pure engineering skills, end up going to.

        • Things like this set in motion certain events, for Microsoft to attempt to obtain such a high number of additional H1B visas, especially during these challenging economic times hasn’t gone unnoticed.
          I’ve alerted numerous senators, congressmen, and the media.
          The wheels are in motion, and this will make a sensational story on TV, and hopefully people would be aroused enough to add their voices to their representatives.
          We can debate, hypothesize, theorize, but the bottom line, it is the wrong thing for Microsoft to do especially now.

  66. James Green1

    Where is Mark F article title “Stop picking on Companies that outsource”. I’m surprised that some of these comments were not edited out and the commenters band for the site.

    • ConfusedCountry

      “I’m surprised that some of these comments were not edited out and the commenters band for the site”. What part surprises you? The part that we have free speech in this country and we all have our right to our opinion and the right to express it? Is your name really James Green? You sure don’t sound like an American?

      Or are you surprised that too much that was written is true, and it just may be inconvenient for you that the truth might get out?

    • Informed

      I guess folks are not entilted to their opinions if you don’t agree with them? I havent read anything in these posts that aren’t accurate. Moderator for what? Censorship?

      Comments from people here are voicing their opinion, that is what this country is about, freedom, and they have a right to express concerns or even vent, but there is very little here I do not agree with myself, so I don’t understand why you believe in censorship unless you are here on an H1B?

      • Let me jump in with a bit of context. First, James is correct that I moderate comments, have deleted some, and have banned a few users (about 3 in the last 18 months), after they’ve ignored warnings about their behavior. I’ve never outright banned anyone without emailing them first. Some examples:

        If a couple of users call each other “idiots” a few times in the course of an argument, I’m not going to get involved. But if one of them starts using racial terms, I’ll delete his or her posts. If they keep at it consistently, I’ll send them at least one warning. But if they continue after that, I’ll ban them.

        If I see a comment that’s generally offensive, I’ll delete it. By offensive, I mean something like, “Everyone knows that people from X can’t code because they’re not genetically suited to it.”

        When it comes to people, I’m concerned with comments that mention anyone by real name unless they’ve shared it themselves. (I don’t mean public figures, by the way. Trash political candidates all you want). It’s not OK to say “John Smith is the dumbest manager I’ve ever met at Acme, Inc.” If you say the “dumbest manager I’ve ever met was at Acme, inc.,” I’m probably not going to care.

        Finally, when it comes to companies, criticism’s fine with a very few exceptions. There’s been a lot of complaining about Microsoft in this thread, for example. What would be questionable is saying something like “Everyone knows Acme hates America and wants to destroy the American workforce by literally poisoning the national water supply.” When you get into that kind of thing, be prepared to back it up. If you don’t, I’ll probably delete the comment.

        For the record, the same rules apply when it comes to criticism of Dice. If anything, I’m more likely to keep those posts. But, when it comes to insulting our writers or contributors, the same rules as I described above apply.

        I know some of you won’t believe me when I say that my first thought in moderating is to KEEP every comment, not delete it. My hope is when someone goes over the top, other users will call them on it.

        In doing all this, I use our Terms of Service as a guide. I’m not a slave to them, though. I don’t claim to be the perfect moderator, and I’m sure I’ve made the wrong decision sometimes. But there’s a lot of subjectivity involved in moderating, so I just do the best I can. (Here’s a link to the ToS if you’re interested.

        Sorry to be so long-winded. Thanks for reading.

        • ConfusedCountry

          Actually I think you are doing a fantastic job moderating. I haven’t found any opinion on this site that I haven’t found worth reading. I know my opinions are very strong, and a few people on this site have pointed out things that I didn’t know and because of them I have revised a few of my thoughts. This is only possible because you allow every reasonable point of view to be heard. Thanks.

        • @Mark Feffer: I think you are doing a great job at moderating. One of the greatest liberties that this country offers is the Freedom of Speech. As a naturalized citizen (received in 2000), it’s is not only an honor but a privilege to be able to share thought, ideas and opinions without the fear of men in suits knocking on your door the next day. But verbaly assulting someone crosses the lines and abuses the First Amendment rights. With that said, I think the differences in opinion and heated discussions add value to the topic, and I welcome well thought out points of view that focus on the questions brought forth by an article or discussion question. It’s important that all sides weigh in. I’d like to see more from the perspective of a current or former H1B worker. Are they really getting paid less? I know for a fact that if a contract worker (even as a US citizen) takes a job for $50/hour, the client is actually paying 100-120 to the contracting company and the contracting company give the worker 50/hour. So in essence, the company is not saving money, but rather saving on paying benefits or a hiring on a project basis to eliminate the need for a full time employee.

          Bringing it back around to the H1B topic, there are several issues and none really has anything to do with who is a better worker because there is plenty of research out there supporting the value of both sides. The biggest issue is the disheartening situation of so many people including myself who are out of work and get chosen over a foreign worker simply because the resume didn’t copy word for word the requirements in an opening. And with high unemployment it is difficult to accept that competitive employees don’t’ exist among those millions out of work. My former company hired a local who fit the bill in terms of resume. He later told me that the recruiter told him that if he wants the job, he needs to rewrite his resume and reword the job requirements and put them in his qualifications. A year later, his managers realized that his resume painted a different picture than what was actually received in the employee.

          In another situation, the company’s Chinese data center has 5 MCSE/MCAD and other “certified: staff, young Chinese graduates with the right degrees. But many failed in a real world application of those skills and in a matter of a couple of years, the entire staff turned over 2-3 times. This could very well be true for a US national. The point is going through the right training is not enough, and the experience of older workers and tenured employees can be invaluable to mentor new employees who might take over when older workers retire. You cannot discount experience and real application knowledge of applying the “textbook” to actual work.

          There are many flaws in the system and the more technology takes the role of weeding out resumes, the more likely that excellent and very qualified employees never see an interview. And the fact that gov’t tax regulation award companies who use foreign workers with tax breaks is also a motivator for large organizations that have large profit to be able to retain them with tax breaks.

          A trend that I have begun seeing is the term “No visas offered, no H1B accepted” by many job posts. Other countries have policies in place that give preferential treatment to locals.

          I’d like to hear more from H1B’s as to what their experiences are. Again, it’s not about i’m a better worker than you, let’s focus on the real issues, impacts and relevance to the government increasing foreign worker visas when 8.5% of the local population is out of work.

  67. @James Green: “I’m surprised that some of these comments were not edited out and the commenters band for the site”

    Wow, ever hear of the First Admendment? Sorry you can’t control us from telling our stories. What you read here are experiences – not just empty opinions.

  68. Jimmy Lozano

    BY CICUTA | OCTOBER 13, 2012
    Mark Ferrer,

    It is not that “if people do not like the blog they don’t have to read it” it is the right the people have in commenting what they think and for the moderator, if any, should place the comments as they were written as a token of respect. If the blog is going to censorship comments then the purpose of asking for comments is defeated. I make comments in several blogs which don’t moderate at all being one of them the NY Times and many others…the comments are posted as written by the commentator. The problem with some blogs is that they don’t “probably” like the truth…the naked truth, and hence the moderator deletes part of the comments and in some cases the whole comment; then, why ask for comments? To say: “if people do not like the blog they don’t have to read it” is not an intelligent answer because if people comment on the article is because they like it and want to voice their thoughts. By the same token, I could say: If Dice and other blogs do not like some comments; then, why write articles and ask for comments? .

    That’s a fair comment, Cicuta. Obviously, people have the right to say what they want. But I’m often curious about people who regularly read and respond to blogs that they just don’t seem to like very much. From what I can see, it happens on most blogs, at least the ones that I read.

    BY CICUTA | OCTOBER 11, 2012
    It is already happening and without any law and what it is even worst…nullifying the first amendment. I know of some web sites which censor the comments and delete what they don’t like or do not post the comment at all…good example is Disqus which manages Ron Paul’s web site. If you make a comment in one of the blogs which Disqus monitors you will see a small window pup up saying that the comment will await revision by the administrator. In a 100% free society where freedom of speech and freedom of the press is practiced that would not happen; comments should be posted as written by the author. This is true for several blogs I know; so, in a way we are one step closer to full censorship in the Internet.

    BY SCOTT | OCTOBER 12, 2012
    Cicuta, there’s a difference between what is happening in the Phillipines and what you are describing. Individual blog owners have the ability to manage what is and isn’t said on their sites, this isn’t an attack on free speech but a protection of private property. Blog owners have registered and either own or rent the domain space, making it theirs to maintain and do with as they will. The non-cyber equivalent to this is you saying that it’s alright if the neighborhood kids make chalk-drawings on your sidewalk and washing them off when a teenager draws you doing illicit things with a horse. There’s nothing wrong with exercising control over what is yours.

    Let me see Scott…
    I’m totally agree with CICUTA almost the 99.99% all of his comments like this one…, particularly this one, because I did suffer the same situation he describe in his comments.
    But, I can Say… I’m Agree with your comment too, because is valid everything you said in the private sector, then… why the private companies like DICE blog allow to put comments in their articles???, because if they don’t like the comment (even if is true or false) they will cut everything that don’t FOLLOW their principal policies.
    But, What happen with the real people that use DICE blog to search a Job because they are Unemployed…???, because if they are reading this blog is with the HOPE to FIND a GOOD JOB or at least A JOB, but when they realize that all those articles on the blogs are in the way of the PRINCIPAL POLICIES of this company, and DOESN’T HELP and NOTHING to find a Job… Then… this is The Real Problem.

    Of course, Jimmy, if people don’t like the blog they don’t have to read it. Just saying.

  69. I read most of the comments, people are missing the world new free economic system. World economy is more connected and more competitive now than ever before in history. It have its pros and cons. When we talk about Free Trade and WTO , then we should prepare our self to be more competitive. Businesses in today’s world care only about growing and staying in business , whatever route it takes. Its not about H1 or foreign worker , its about cost and profit. When China started making Indian Sarhi (an Indian women garment ) thousands of people lost their jobs, why because customers cares only about COST , not patriotism or anything. Sad or Good news is competition is getting stiff by everyday in every corner in every industry.

    • Staying in business? Are you blind? These companies aren’t concerned about staying on buns ones, they’re only looking at the next quarter’s stock price. That’s what executive compensation is based on, not staying in business.

      And that is why IBM and HP are systematically turning into body shops and losing customers: they’re more interested in cutting costs by replacing skilled workers with cheap workers than they are in retaining customers and raising revenues.

      • ConfusedCountry

        … and the race to the bottom will eventually kill them. Just compare Microsoft and Apple. Microsoft is very highly dependent on H1-B’s while Apple rates very low on the list. Now look at the quality of the software. Apple rates really high, Microsoft rates really low. Case closed.

        • “… and the race to the bottom will eventually kill them. ”

          Not just them, it will kill the entire economy. Most of the companies that are taking excessive advantage of the H1b visas are using the lower apparent cost to cut staff without taking qualifications into consideration. They’re not interested in hiring people who can do the job well, they’re interested in hiring people who fit the buzzwords cheaply. Witness IBM’s latest fiascos — read about them on — and see what I mean. It’s not just people with h1b’s, either; IBM is laying off people with experience in favor of people with none just to cut costs, and they’re losing customers because they’re delivering cut-rate service as a result.

          The management at IBM will most likely continue using the cost-cutting approach to boosting its stock price until it runs out of customers, then out of money, and then simply collapses.

      • @confusedcountry — Microsoft is predominently a software company, Apple is predominently a hardware company. It’s apples to oranges (pun intended) in terms of line of business. In comparing how the software work on each side is done, you are completely discounting the fact that Apple almost exclusively outsources all of it’s manufacturing, which is the lion’s share of the cost of goods sold. Case reopend and ruled irrelevent.

        • ConfusedCountry


          I’ve heard that argument so many times before. Apple is hardware company and Microsoft is Software. That is so untrue, in fact I am not so sure that Microsoft is the “largest” software company, it just may be Apple.

          Apple produces, 2 Operating Systems, their own Office Suite, Browser, Embedded Software for AppleTV, and iPods, iTunes (which probably has more users than Microsoft Office). They have their own Server Upgrade for their operating system, iCloud. XCode along with all their software development tools for Objective-C, and the list goes on. Does this sound like a hardware company? They are at least as large as Microsoft in the Software business with only one difference.

          All of Apple’s software works great, all of Microsoft Software sucks. Between work and home, I have a heavy does of Microsoft software and Apple, and I can tell you first hand, Microsoft’s quality is WAY lower than Apple’s. –and Microsoft is at the top of the H1-B list.

          So once again. Apple is a gigantic software company, so case is closed again.

          • I guess the way to find out is to “follow the money”. If you take away Apple’s hardware market, who buys their software or other products? If you take away Microsoft’s O/S, who buys their other products? //
            In the case of Apple, their company goes out of business. In the case of MS, they whittle down to only XBox. //
            Conversely, take away Apple’s software business and what do you have left? I great hardware product with lots of 3rd-party apps produced by others. Take away MS’s hardware business and they have large marketshare in the O/S and software industry. //
            Basically, an argument I heard is that Apple produces software to sell their hardware. This makes sense, and also indicates why they produce great software: to promote the features of their hardware. //
            These days, few big companies are only in one market, as we see here so I’d say that Apple is a hardware company that also sells software and MS is an O/S company that also sells software. //
            Do either of these exclude outsourcing? Nope? Does it promote immigrant visas? For MS is probably does much more than Apple since MS HAS to promote it’s software while Apple wants strict control over how their software helps promote their HW.

          • ConfusedCountry

            but it still begs the question: Why is Apple Software so much better, and of higher quality than Microsoft Software. Lets compare Apples to Apples. Operating System?. Apple Wins. Browser? Apple Wins, Mobile OS? Apple Wins. Although, these are subjective comparisons, based on reviews and thousands of customer satisfaction surveys, Apple does win, and those are three big areas we can make one to one comparisons and 100% compare software to software.

            So I can’t explain why Apple is so good, and Microsoft is so bad. Maybe it is management alone–but if that is the case, then it is also Microsoft management, who would be lower quality in this argument than Apple management are the ones that always feel they need more H1-B’s, when Apple seems to be doing just fine with a very small number.

            …but when you look at four major software companies that seem to be in decline, Microsoft, Adobe, Yahoo, and IBM, all have been major proponents of sending work to India and using H1-B visas. Is this a coincidence? or is there a cause and effect relationship.

            If you look at the list of the top H1-B users which is occasionally published, those top user companies all seem to either be in decline, or have had bad quality image problems over the past few years.

            Now, you could argue that it has nothing to do with H1-B usage at all. It could also mean that management that only cares about profits and doesn’t care about their employees, may also not care about the quality of the product they produce either. So maybe it is all about Management and employee morale, and not cause and effect.

            …but either way, it is interesting to watch.

          • Why is Apple quality better than MS quality? I think a similar question is “why is BMW quality better than Chevy quality?” the answer is that is where they put their focus.

            In the case of Apple, they demand a premium price and know they can’t get it with cheap stuff. MS was looking for a mass market with cheaper stuff and got it at the expense of quality. Apple revenues are about the same as MS, apparently, so they don’t need more marketshare to stay competitive.

            And the trend follows that MS looks for anything cheap, like outside labor. Sometimes they also get quality with that but often the process fails with cultural differences, etc that cause the product to fail or deadlines to get skipped. Why you try to get the Chinese or Indians to do work for you, you not only have to explain things in a human language you both understand, but in a cultural language you both understand…and to me that second part is why most of the H1B visa fail to produce a good product (since many of both groups are quite smart, and yet they have trouble getting the job done any better than Americans who may be less smart…which should give an advantage to us smarter Americans, but then it goes back to cost.)

          • Listen to Reason

            The “Cause and Effect”, bottom line, you get what you pay for, what good is the hardware if the software is hack code?

            Microsoft can hire “Engineers”, if that is what you want to call them, and all they can produce is Metro?

            I have been at Microsoft, I offered a manager to replace 12 H1B resources with 3 good US coders, and she asked me to leave. The code from the H1B was pathetic, so their is some management gain for Microsoft Managers to hire H1B, tax benefits for one, plus the more people you have working for you at Microsft, the stronger your position and pay.

          • “So once again. Apple is a gigantic software company, so case is closed again.”

            That’s pure BS. Apple is a consumer electronics company. Most of Apple’s revenue has been hardware for a very long time, though their music and app revenues are probably getting to a point where they’re rivaling their toy revenue.

            Some of Apple’s software is pretty good, some of it is abysmal, much like everyone else’s. There are a lot of large companies using Microsoft’s database server and OS for their datacenters — companies like Disney and Expedia, for example.

            Reality says that Apple is a hardware company, and that Microsoft is among the largest software companies in the world. Your cult-boy opinion isn’t going to change that.

          • ConfusedCountry

            Your response makes no sense. You keep calling Apple a Hardware company just because they sell their hardware and give the software away for free. I guess you also believe that HP is an ink company. The bulk of their revenue in comes from ink not printers. They practically give the Printer away so they can sell the ink.

            You keep confusing Marketing Strategy from what the company actually does. Apple is a GIGANTIC software company, even if they sell the Hardware and give the Software free, and HP is a GIGANTIC printer company, even if they sell the ink and give the printer free. Can you understand now, or are you still confused? If you are, than chant, Marketing is how a company sells, Products is what they make. Got it?

          • Listen to Reason

            Apple doesn;t need a lot of code, it’s efficient….I do not get the point of your comment.

            Code rule of thumb, 4-7 lines of code for one instruction set is the norm for most good programmers, today with the help of H1B, you are looking at 10-14 lines, that is a burden on any application. And in most cases the code with 10-14 lines per instruction most likely will have to be re-written, it is high mantenance, poor performance, and honestly, not worth the low wage that was expended creating it.

            So yes, Apple has less code.

          • ConfusedCountry

            I agree. OS X is much more compact than Windows, runs faster, and works better. So yes, if Malik means that Microsoft has more junk software to accomplish the same thing, then he is right. Microsoft wins with more low quality bulk code. By that measure, Apple uses a miniscule amount of code to accomplish the same thing!

          • Listen to Reason

            Another example of why H1B as it stands now is not contributing to productivity, Rakesh is not making sense, but he is good at calling names. This blog is above that, with all due respect, it is insulting to us.

          • Listen to Reason

            I am just stating facts. This blog is about ideas and thoughts, not about voicing your agenda. The blog is overwhelming in favor that H1B for Microsoft is a liability as evidenced by its decline in the market place and profits and it hurts our country.

          • You’re not stating facts. You’re making things up to support your agenda while claiming to be arguing against MS’s case regarding h1b visas, even though your points in addition to be non-factual aren’t even related.

          • Listen to Reason

            Rakesh, I am not going to argue with you, I have the facts, I worked at Microsoft, with Microsoft, and I have the experience with them to support any of my facts. I really think that this blog is too much for you to accept. It is a tough subject but honestly let me ask you some basic facts:
            Did Henry Ford come from India?
            Did Marconi come from India?
            Did DaVinci come from India
            Did Steve Jobs come from India?
            Did Bill Gates come from India?
            In fact, where any of these folks H1B?

            IBM, Microsoft, Oracle, Apple, HP, and so on, are they from India? No, they are not. I can tell you from days of mainframe that if we wrote code like what it is today, we would have been fired.

            We wrote excellent quality code because companies could not buy a mainframe, they leased them based on CPU usage, so bad code meant high CPU usage, and high costs. Imagine if that principle were applied today, do you think that Offshore or H1B would be so widely used? Also, not a one of us had any engineering degrees, including all the names I mentioned above. So the engineering argument is vapor.

            Any project that I manage, I make sure I do not allow any offshore or H1b on the staff, I deliver quality, best practice, and low maintenance cod on time on budget and with references. I am a case in point that this H1B business is being abused.

            You will see a story soon in a major newspaper about the hiring practices of H1B after they are here and the quality issue. It will upset you I am sure, but again, the truth can hurt. Call me what you want, but lets stick to the topic please.

          • It certainly explains why you can speak the language so well, unlike so many of the other H1B candidates that I’ve seen, even from the very smart ones. I know I’d sound quite out of place in India or Great Britain or China. That and cultural differences would mean that my products would not be up to par with that of the less smart locals.

          • ConfusedCountry

            I can tell you have been around since the Mainframe days. So have I. If we took the average Server from today and sent it back to the 70’s and 80’s, we could run a small country on the power of that machine. We definitely do not code like the way we used to!

            Fifteen years ago, if you told a team to build a website from scratch with no open source, they would do their jobs just fine because they were programmers.

            Today, if you put a team together and told them to build a website and told them “no open source allowed”, they would all become a bunch of cripples and wouldn’t even know where to begin!

            This is why we have a skills shortage. We have lots of programmers now but none can program. As technology tries to move forward we now have a bunch of non-programmers who spend the day searching Google for something they can “use” and “patch together” to get their jobs done. Increasing the H1-B limits will only increase the problem.

    • @Shab: “… When we talk about Free Trade and WTO , then we should prepare our self to be more competitive.”

      @Shab: “… Businesses in today’s world care only about growing and staying in business , whatever route it takes… its about cost and profit… customers cares only about COST , not patriotism or anything.”

      The above comments show the terribly flawed thinking of a foreign worker.

      Do you really want your children or grandchildren to grow up in a world as described by Shab?

    • Shab, although you are right that the economics are getting global, “free” trade has yet to be set up correctly. Currently, countries like the U.S. open their “borders” to allow others to send people here to work, but those same companies set up protections so that the U.S. cannot send people there to work. That’s not free trade when it’s one-way.
      In addition, the large corporations here are benefitting by this opportunity to get cheap labor in exchange for a cheap product, but they are not passing those savings on to the people buying their products, many of whom are no longer working because of the “free trade”…so again, it’s not balances since those affected are not able to get jobs in those foreign countries (for various reasons.)

      So, wherever you live, imaging that your neighbor is allowed to come into your house and take food any time he wanted (leaving a few dollars at less than full value) because you left your doors open for free trade, but you can’t get into his because he keeps his locked. If you’re rich, you may not care (because you can get that food a lot cheaper through volume purchases), but if you’re unemployed and your home gets raided by your neighbor, it becomes a big issue.

    • Jimmy Lozano

      BY JIMMY LOZANO | OCTOBER 15, 2012
      Well… Once Again… I need to tell… I’m 99% agree in all CICUTA comments either way if are historical comments or today’s comment…

      But in the case of Scott… I found one phrase of him that I don’t Understand:
      —-”” If I own and maintain a blog and someone posts something I find objectionable, I am completely within my right to remove said post, regardless of my criteria. “”—-

      First Q, Why the PRIVATE sector need to release and article in PUBLIC sector with the ALLOW of public comments and CUT the comment’s that the PRIVATE sector DON’T LIKE…???
      TO ME is like: some kind the SUPPRESSION with all the right.

      Second Q, Why you need to remove the post regardless of your criteria…???
      that means that you are agree with the post BUT your BOSS tell you to CUT OFF…???
      TO ME is like: go to SUPPRESS and DON’T ASK why… that’s the law and your payment.

  70. To those who complain that their First Amendment rights (which only apply in the U.S. anyway) are violated when moderators delete or edit posts allegedly not to their liking: I have some news. The First Amendment doesn’t guarantee you the right to have somebody else publish your comments at their expense. (Even if the expense, as in this case, is trivial.) It guarantees you the right to publish your comments at your own expense. Contact a hosting company. Set up your own website. Publish whatever you want, to your heart’s content. That’s the only right you’re guaranteed. That said, though, it is disappointing that web sites, TV networks, magazines, newspapers (what’s paper?) etc. in so many cases don’t make a balanced effort to present both (or all) sides of an issue responsibly, but choose instead to be mouthpieces for a particular point of view. This reduces the number of outlets for fair, healthy discussion, leading to the present situation in which too many people listen to, watch, read, etc. only those with whom they’re already inclined to agree, which led to the sharply polarized opinions we see on every public policy issue, including H-1 visas.

  71. Jimmy Lozano

    Well… Once Again… I need to tell… I’m 99% agree in all CICUTA comments either way if are historical comments or today’s comment…

    But in the case of Scott… I found one phrase of him that I don’t Understand:
    —-”” If I own and maintain a blog and someone posts something I find objectionable, I am completely within my right to remove said post, regardless of my criteria. “”—-

    First Q, Why the PRIVATE sector need to release and article in PUBLIC sector with the ALLOW of public comments and CUT the comment’s that the PRIVATE sector DON’T LIKE…???
    TO ME is like: some kind the SUPPRESSION with all the right.

    Second Q, Why you need to remove the post regardless of your criteria…???
    that means that you are agree with the post BUT your BOSS tell you to CUT OFF…???
    TO ME is like: go to SUPPRESS and DON’T ASK why… that’s the law and your payment.

    • Re censorship — Recently the US Senate failed to pass (due to public outcry) a bill that would have given the govt the right to control/censor the internet in ways that violate the 1st amendment. Sen Joe Lieberman (I) immediately ran to Obama begging him to create an executive order to override the people and do so anyway. That’s the kind of people we have as leaders in Congress. Why should we be surprised when they link up with their equally treasonous counterparts in the corporate world? After all, it is they who fill the politicians’ war chests. May I suggest to the “native” population the effects of visas in the next couple of generations? Their children will be US citizens who have no better understanding or love of the 1st amendment (or the 2nd or 4th for that matter) then those here who try to defend censorship because it is only an “American” thing or we did not pay for the website ourselves. As (true) Americans, we accept freedom of expression as an overriding philosophy that we freely allow to others. The idea is that the best ideas will prevail when discussion is free. Look at England where they are shamed into never speaking out against the “newcomer” or risk being called a bigot, not even when it is necessary to maintain their own rights. I hope I am long dead before we allow that to happen here.

        • “Thank you for your comments, well said and humble. We need more folks to stand up to this soft tyranny. How can we be effective as a group and stop this nonsense?”

          I do have a recommendation. Give up. If you can find it within yourself to accept as inevitable the probability that educated visa holders arriving by air combined with uneducated non-visa holders arriving on foot will either take your job or make it unprofitable for you to continue working, then that is what I recommend. It is certainly the easiest thing to do. Just grab a 6-pack, turn on the game and forget about it. Indeed, you should learn to bow down with the same alacrity as our leader whenever he meets foreign royalty. However, if you are one of the 3 percent who find it physically impossible to look the other way, may I suggest the following: 1) Contact your Senator and Representative and tell them how to vote and tell them that you are watching them closely. Remind them of Mr. Dewhurst (TX state Deputy Governor, the would-be senator from Texas who will never get his chance to take retiring Sen. Hutchinson’s seat in DC because he failed to stand with the citizens on an issue that we care about. 2) Read drudgereport dot com to keep aware of the other ways you may be getting the shaft and do not even be aware of.

        • I just went online to their websites and wrote to my US Senator and HR Rep from my district. I told them that hundreds of us are watching to see how they vote on Microsoft’s proposal and will vote accordingly.

  72. ConfusedCountry

    Here we go again. I guess I am a complete idiot then. I am so delusional that I actually believe that a very large percentage of people reading this post right now are running some kind of Apple Software. They either have iPhones, Macs, or iPods at a bare minimum. I think they just said yesterday at their iPad mini event that 400 million people download from iBookstore. Is that miniscule? How many hundreds of millions use iTunes? Let’s not forget iCloud that almost every iPod, iPad, or iPhone in existence uses, which are all written using Apple Languages and Tools.

    Apple also has MASSIVE computer centers that run, (drum roll please), SOFTWARE! Billion dollar computer center’s I might add to run their miniscule amount of software.

    I truly have no idea what planet you are living on. I am willing to bet that even you use Apple software for something!

    ….and I will add, you don’t have to be an Apple Fan Boy to see the difference in Quality. There have been enough customer satisfaction surveys that prove my point. And since people are never satisfied with a piece of Hardware with a dead battery, I can only assume it is the Software that it runs that people are so happy with.

    I will also add, that except for occasionally running Windows on a virtual machine, I never use Microsoft software. We have Macs at work and ALL I use is Apple products at home. So in MY life, Microsoft is a miniscule software company and Apple is GIGANTIC.

    Besides Windows 8 will once again prove the low quality of Microsoft and within 5 years they will probably be gone (except for Corporations).

    If you consider Apple a miniscule software company, you must be in denial, and anyone reading this post on their iPhone or iPad will think you are nuts too!

    • It would be interesting to find out how many of the (600,000+ ??) Apps in the Apps Store are actually built by “Apple” and not a third party. And also what ratio of those Apps are of any use… I’m not dogging Apple at all.. When it came time to replace my existing hardware, I chose a MacBook Pro instead of investing in another laptop running Windows.
      There were many reasons why…
      1. Windows crashes all the time, blue screen, freezing etc..Luckily I’m literate enough to fix most issues.
      2. MS OS software updates expensive – as well as other software and then there is usually a compatibility issue…
      3. Separate Virus, and Malware software had to be installed that used up too much RAM and space on Windows.

      So now I own a MacBook, Ipad, iPhone, and an Ipod Nano.. And I must say I love my Apple products and the stability of the OS. The only things that ever crash or freeze are my MS Office Products, but even that is so rare.

      With that said, Microsoft has much more software especially for enterprise and business.. How many Apple Servers are there in the corporate world? How many Enterprise databases store Financial, HR, and Business application data? I have yet to see a company that runs only on “Apple” OS and Business productivity tools for end users, have data centers that house Apple servers in their blade racks, and Apple development tools in their IT shop? Apple has always targeted the 3 main user groups: Recreational home user, 2. Graphic designers, 3. Audio/video producers. They have never wanted to target the business arena until People started bringing their personal iPads to work and asked if they could VPN in to the network. And then Apple began offering more productivity tools for business and building apps for enterprise deployment. And surprisingly allow MS Office on Macs. But “Apple” cannot be compared to Microsoft in the software arena unless you are looking at one of the three areas I mentioned above.

      With the new MS Surface that’s coming out in the next few days, Apple will have greater competition in the business field because strictly because of cost and full seamless integration with existing hardware and software platforms inside organizations.

      And just to give a little dose of sarcasm… the great thing that Apple has going for it is that if the new MS Surface is anything like the Other Software that Microsoft produces, it will be buggy and patches will be released every Wednesday to fix the bugs.. better hope you data is on the sky drive because you will not have any warning that the next patch that is about to Auto install is about to wipe your drive clean. 😉 But I may still buy an MS Surface… in about a year after SP2 comes out..

      • ConfusedCountry

        I agree that Microsoft has many more business software products, but Apple is way ahead on consumer products. I know this is premature to say now, but I am willing to bet that Windows 8 will be a buggy failure. I can’t see how a company that has produced such low quality in the past, can all of a sudden leap ahead, especially when they are openly admitting that they can’t find talented people. I think their real problem is they can’t recognize talented people. –and that is a problem that can’t be fixed with H1-B visas. In fact, I am sure the true “best and the brightest” programmers from India will be passed over by Microsoft, and Microsoft will instead hire the duds.

        In the end, even more than an H1-B problem, we have a corporate problem where they no longer have enough talent to recognize talented people. If they did, they probably wouldn’t need so many visas in the first place. Apple buys whole companies, shuts them down, and kills their products just to get the people and put them to work on Apple products.

        Most other Corporations would do the opposite. They would buy the company, outsource the people, and try to continue selling the same junk at a lower price.

  73. ConfusedCountry

    Well, fine obviously we are not both going to agree that Apple is a software company too, so we may as well drop it.

    I will close by saying Microsoft doesn’t matter any more. They still have a foot hold in Corporate IT, but more and more jobs I take use Macs in IT (this one and my last two jobs). The world is moving on, and even with all of Microsoft’s talented H1-B visa programmers, they still can’t catch up.

    Five years from now Microsoft will most likely be gone. Windows 8 is going to be the beginning of the end, and even though it is just being released now, I guarantee the quality problems will be their downfall. The true result of all of Microsoft H1-B exploits is about to be revealed, so stay tuned for the downfall.

    • On microsoft’s ongoing descent, I do agree. There are a few industries where their dominance is related to technical leadership rather than on essentially momentum, but where they are largest (OS) is not one of them.

      Office products and games will probably be their main holdouts, helped by the fact that their office products are still among the biggest sellers for the Mac platform.

    • It’s good to know that some companies are switching to Macs. I’m sure one of the reasons is that it is more stable and worth the cost of purchasing the more expensive machines – It’s probably less costly in the ling run because you don’t have to have support techs on staff to fix al the errors and issues typically seen by MS. Quality has always been an issue with microsoft. If any development team in a typical company rolled out an application with as many bugs and issues that MS rolls out, they would be fired.

      • Support staff I’ve talked to said that macs ended up costing more than windows machines, because the burden on them was proportionally the same as far as computer problems, but they didn’t get nearly the same level of support from apple that they did from other vendors. It wasn’t that the macs had more problems or anything like that, just that apple doesn’t have much of a support network.

        • I’ve owned my Mac for 7 months and have never needed support… In the same amount of time with my Dell Laptop, the harddrive had to be replaced, Windows reinstalled (twice,). Then had to spend 2 days each time windows reinstalled to add on all the other software I had on the machine. Lots of lost time totaling 5 trips to helpdesk for support… My MAC… No support needed.. Nothing goes wrong with it.

          • Macs too have their share of glitches.
            The problem I have with MAC Corp. is that they (under S. Jobs), perfected the art of EXPLOITATION, of both foreign “Slave” labor, as well as avoidance of US Taxes.

            S. Jobs = Darth V. or Lucifer

            Their products are far over priced….

            The deeper the US middle class sinks, so will global economies


          • That’s one Mac. Have you ever considered the case of having several dozen?

            In reality, pointless anecdotes aside, most people don’t ever need support for their personal computers. When you’re responsible for hundreds or thousands, your view changes. The fact is that if you have a shop with 10,000 windows pc’s and 1000 macs, you’re going to have problems with them, and you’ll have more problems with the windows machines simply due to the number of them. Yet many it shops find that macs cost more, due primarily to the lack of support…

          • Guys,

            You’re losing site of what the corporate office has done.

            They decided to send jobs abroad, so as to not deal with American people, and benefits (i.e., pay, medical, vacation, rights under US laws, etc.), that go along with it.
            Tax avoidance, and pressured US politicians to lower import taxes.
            This will allow them to further exploit foreign salve labor.
            To add insult to injury, they bring in additional “SUB PAR” slave labor.

            I say Bring on the guillotines & Vive la révolution

          • @whatdoyouknowa: “They decided to send jobs abroad, so as to not deal with American people, and benefits (i.e., pay, medical, vacation, rights under US laws, etc.), that go along with it. Tax avoidance”

            Ahmen. You said it all in a nutshell. The motto of the French Revolution: Some heads are gonna roll!

            Add adviodance of maternity leave, family leave, and any other ‘rights’ that our gubment has added to ‘protect’ employees. These ‘protections’ give the corps even more ammo to outsource.
            Other benefits are disappearing from many jobs: sick leave, matching 401k contributions.

            Silly us. Here we are arguing with some foreigners about the best and brightest, when it’s really just about money.

          • ConfusedCountry

            There is a difference between assembly line work and outsourcing. In assembly line work the workers learn and exact skill and do a repetitive set of steps. Whether it is right or wrong, cheap labor works in those cases and companies can profit from the “slave” labor.

            Outsourcing is different. You depend on the people you send the work to to be able to do innovative work. You can use low caliber employees on an assembly line and be successful, but if you use low caliber “Intellectual” workers, the company will suffer.

            I believe this is the case that is starting to happen now. They are saving money per person, but they have been slowly destroying the company. Microsoft is but one example.

            Unfortunately, once you’ve fired and replaced your smart people with lower quality workers, you can’t reverse the trend because your new people haven’t got the skills to be able to (or won’t) recognize the talented people they need to reverse the downward spiral.

            For companies like Microsoft it is also too late. I say allow them a larger pool of people to hire from, and allow them to pay higher fees to the government for lower quality workers. It will only hasten their demise and create more opportunity for companies like Apple.

            Then as Apple rises, they will be able to find plenty of high quality Americans to hire from. As an American programmer, allowing Microsoft to bring in more low skilled labor, actually creates more opportunity for Americans.

            We are now in the final phase of this race to the bottom where the companies that participated in it slowly go out of business creating more opportunity for the ones who didn’t. Look at HP. Talk about a major outsourcing, and H1-B user. Where are they headed now?

          • Very interesting perspective about flooding us with H1B visas for MS, and I might agree if: (1) Apple doesn’t change now that Jobs’ foresight is gone, or will slowly fade; (2) a collection of other companies follow Apple’s lead in quality, which we have yet to see after 30 years.

            In addition, this would likely mean that the current set of American developers who do not have Apple’s skill set will never have a job in software development without a major and costly re-investment in themselves, just as their careers are winding down for many of us (since Apple, the only game in town, will not hire us with the current skill set, not even at a lower salary since up-and-coming kids with more initiative and eagerness can easily fill that role.) You could try to create your own “Apple support” group to work with 3rd-party Apple products, but again those typically go to the youth, and experience has less value when applied to older technology–apparently from what we’ve seen over and over.

          • ConfusedCountry

            You bring up a good point. I will share this. I started out as a Mainframe COBOL and Assembler programmer. Back in the 80’s when the PC’s came out I switched to C. Back then I just assumed that the vast army of COBOL programmers would become the next PC programmers, after all who else would do it?

            I was wrong and it didn’t happen. A new generation of programmers came into existence. Through-out the years I have seen over and over again that programmers don’t “migrate”. A new generation started Windows GUI programming, and yet another new generation started Web, and yet another new generation started J2EE. Each generation of programmers die with their own technology (or fade away) but rarely do they migrate. I’ve forced to re-invent myself many times (and believe me I hate it).

            I am not anxious to go back to C type language (Objective-C) but there is a reward at the end. History has shown that the current crop of programmers won’t follow. As painful it is to make the switch, there are greener pastures ahead.

            Also, the mobile Objective-C craze is starting at a time when H1-B limits are filled, and prices and inflation is much higher in Indian than it was 10 years ago.

            If you can muster the strength to reinvent yourself one more time (Ugh), we might have smooth sailing ahead because history has shown that the bulk of the H1-B coders will not follow. They will sink with the ship.

          • Hmmm…I am currently “between contracts” and was just offered a job doing PL/I at a $40K pay cut, but the job will likely let me cruise through the next 15 years (probably with little chance of a raise.)
            Or, as you say, I can reinvent myself again (from mainframes to PCs to web technology and trying for phone-type app technology) and see how it goes, and probably get at least that $40K back so I’ll actually have money at retirement. Java never quite panned out for me (although it was pretty easy to learn Java 2.0 from my vast knowledge) and I never really got into C++, so I’m not sure how much trouble I’d have getting into ObjectiveC…but I’ve definitely been keeping it on the radar. I’ll have to see how Monday’s interview for web developer goes…

          • ConfusedCountry

            I used to do PL/I years ago and I always thought that C was a subset of PL/I. PL/I is like C intersected with COBOL. C++ was always a complicated upgrade from C, but so far I am finding Objective-C to be a simple upgrade from C and not nearly as complicated as C++. (The syntax looks a bit weird though). If you can do PL/I, it is not that big a leap to Objective-C.

            I’m 56 now, so this may be the last time I have to reinvent myself, but programming in Objective-C makes me feel like I’m playing with toys. Give it try and end your career doing something fun! You still have a ways to go, so stop struggling. There are lots of Jobs out there for iOS, and Objective-C is more fun than most transitions you’ve probably had to make in the past. One more time. You can do it. Have some fun.

          • Thanks for the encouragement. If it works out, I have at least 2 dozen projects to finish in App development (mostly projects I wanted to do in the 70s/80s that would work great as a phone app.

          • Understood.. I’ve supported 1500 PC’s at one time both as a developer and end user trainer in my previous job so I understand quantities of scale. I was just making a comment as to personal experience. The biggest issue we had with macs and Ipads were compatibility issues with Microsoft AD, VPN and application requirements (i.e. Flash and video codecs and MS office productivity tools).. but in any case.. What I found most interesting is that we’d roll out 100 new MS Laptops and each one would take a day or two (full days) to configure to work with all of the enterprise and other ERP, Printers etc.and then continue to have issues, error messages etc. Users became used to features not working and then basically the benefits of the tools went unrealized.. Again. I’m just speaking from my personal experience. I don’t have any experience with large scale Mac deployments as they simply are quite rate .. as compared to Windows deployments for most companies. But I understand that there are Mac shops out there. I just haven’t been a part of one.

          • If you’re familiar with large-scale operations, then you should definitely be aware of the fact that anecdotal evidence based on one machine over the course of seven months is meaningless.

            I’ve worked in shops that are entirely windows-based as well as shops that are hybrids, and the story has been the same in all cases. The IT staff typically purchase computers in batches so that they’re configured identically, install their OS and all the rest of their software on one, then clone the disk image to the rest.

            I’ve talked to several of the IT support folks, and in the end the story’s been the same, pretty much. Most of the problems they experience are due to hardware failures, and getting support from Apple has always been a bear, especially for larger shops where they have to deal with multiple machines at once, because Apple couldn’t figure out that a large IT shop has different needs from an individual or family.

            They also cited higher software costs, though that’s becoming less of an issue now that OSX has better integration with Exchange, and they no longer have to install Parallels or something similar in order to get reliable Exchange integration, which saves them money.

            In the end, what it comes down to is that since they have typically 10x or in most shops more like 100x as many Windows PC’s as they do Apple PC’s, they have to spend more time on Windows-related support issues…

            And Apple’s lack of support is also one reason that there are nearly no significant datacenters based on OSX, other than presumably Apple’s own. If you get a server from the likes of RackSaver you pay more than you would with an XServe, but you get on-site support and quite a few guarantees that Apple doesn’t even appear to think about, let alone offer. Hence, XServe is dead, and OSX server edition is basically OSX + some open source web server software. Sure, there’s some customization in there, but a rock-solid server version of their OS isn’t ever going to be a priority for a consumer electronics company.

          • ConfusedCountry

            Well, now we found something we can agree on. The Mac Mini Server is perfect for a beauty salon, or an accounting office. Plug and play and all parts of the server can be reached from the GUI without using the terminal commands.

            Bigger shops typically need to do more than what is reachable from the GUI and I can see where Apple doesn’t want any part of that business.

            For small businesses OS/X Server is remarkably easy. For Corporations, Linux would be my choice.

          • ConfusedCountry

            Well, since I am the only programmer in the family, all my kids (3) mom, dad, and myself with several computers I probably had about 10 computers in total (that I was responsible for) and they were all windows. All I did was fix them, reinstall drivers, run antivirus, and reinstall the operating system every year.

            After around 2006 I gradually started switching everybody over to Macs as the Windows junk slowly died. There is now about 10 macs in the family (including my several machines) and I haven’t had to fix a machine in years.

            My Daughter used to come back from College every few months and hand me her laptop with always something to fix. After I bought her a Mac, she never ever asked me to fix anything again.

            I believe having around 10 computers in the family of first Windows and then Macs, is a big enough sample to not be a statistical anomaly. I’ve also heard this same story numerous times from everyone I know who made the switch. (and you are hearing the same story right here on this blog as well)

            It is not a matter of 10,000 windows versus 1,000 macs. Apple software is much better written than Microsoft’s. …and since people write software, at least I have concluded that Apple has higher quality programmers than Microsoft does–so all we need to do is compare where they get their programmers from and we might find the difference.

          • I’m not sure if I agree or disagree, but let me throw this out there as an analogy.
            “All of my family used to have Chevy Nova cars because they were cheap and accessible. however, there was a lot of maintenance that I had to spend on them to keep them running. I finally gave up on that and we all bought BMWs and now we rarely have any issues.” To me, this means that if you buy quality, you take away certain problem, but you pay for it through the nose. For some people, it’;s worth it and for others it’s not. For example, every oil change on an BMW will either be at the dealership at a very inflated price, or will be subject to adding low-grade material that will potentially destroy the car. For the price of a BMW, I could buy 3-4 cheap cars that use lower grade fuel (87 octane vs 89 or 91) and have many resources available for repairs (which will come more frequently if I don’t do basic maintenance on my car, which most people will skip.) Likewise, for Apple produce, you typically pay through the nose for that quality but you know your set of problems will likely be minimal; but if something comes up, pay through the nose for it, and if you want add-ons, you pay through the nose for those too. If you can afford it, go with better quality; otherwise, expect to have to deal with your own maintenance issues over and over.

          • ConfusedCountry

            However most of the problems I always had were software related. Failed drivers, really bad service packs or patches that didn’t work or made things worse. Have you ever tried to Upgrade Windows from one version to the next? Talk about nightmare. With Mac, I just go to the App Store and click one button to upgrade my machine from Lion to Mountain Lion and walk away until it is done.

            Try doing that with Windows!

  74. Computer Science Grad

    Man, I knew this was going to be one hot topic when it showed up in my email. I don’t have time to read over 300 comments, but I have been able to read a few, and there are some really excellent points being made. A coworker said years ago, “The only thing Microsoft can make that doesn’t suck is a vacuum cleaner.” Years later that statement still rings true in every aspect. I believe there is a much bigger problem than Microsoft (and others) increasing the number of H-1B visas. Consumers need to use their brain for thinking and not just doing to keep up with their next door neighbors. Most of the shiny new gadgets with all of the cute bells and whistles being sold on the market are not needed. America needs better quality merchandise, not more quantity crap from Microsoft and others. When it comes to billion dollar corporations increasing their H1-B visas, and corrupt politicians accepting payoffs from these corporations that prevent qualified Americans from obtaining employment after graduation, just refuse to spend your hard earned money on their product. If it doesn’t improve your quality of life or make it more convenient for you to live daily, leave it on the shelf. The only way to hurt a wealthy person is to make him/her poor. If IT outsourcing continues to increase, as well as other jobs, American consumers will not be able to afford the product being produced no matter who is making it. There is too much outsourcing and not enough loyalty towards working Americans who want and need a job.

    • ConfusedCountry

      People are already leaving Microsoft crap on the shelf and buying Apple.

      The system will clean itself out and once Microsoft starts their massive layoffs, a lot of low skilled workers will be headed back home. In a way the low skilled labor would have done us all a favor by parasitically eating up Microsoft (and other companies like them) and getting paid lots of money to produce very little until they kill their host and clean up the industry for us. In a way it is nature working at it’s best.

  75. Everyone here should watch Dan Rather Reports “No Thanks For Everything” (episode 621) about IT worker layoffs and H1B visas and outsourcing, including a woman who was laid off from Microsoft after being replaced by indians. It was rebroadcast on recently.

    It’s quite obvious the gov’t (Congress) needs to take some action to protect American workers like other countries are doing to protect theirs! Emphasis needs to be placed on 40+ (age), long-term unemployed or “unemployable” workers out there who are struggling!


      John, you are correct. EVERYONE should watch the Dan Rather Reports, “No Thanks For Everything”
      I could not watch it, but I did read the entire transcript. It was eye opening, saddening, and infuriating all rolled into one. I was already planning to “communicate” with some politicians and now I will be including a written copy of this transcript with my letter. Microsoft, American Express, Honeywell, and all of the others keep saying they are “an equal opportunity employer.” How can they eliminate American workers, refuse to hire and train American workers, and/or replace American workers with workers from India and other countries and still remain legal within the law? I smell a class action lawsuit in the future against these companies from American tech workers and possibly others. This goes above and beyond being ridiculously selfish and greedy of billion dollar “global” corporations.

  76. jerrybdot

    How much of h1b is really to get skilled cheap labor as opposed to what it really is — age discrimination. Me and people like me (age 50’s) are replaced with imported people in their 20’s. I thought it was illegal for a company to actively dismiss people in their 50’s for people in their 20’s. H1b accomplishes this objective and, apparently, no one is saying anything other than “it sure is hard to get a job”.

    Let’s say that a position largely held by black people was being h1b’ed away. Do you think this would be allowed? However, the current h1b for high tech is no different. The jobs being lost are held (in large part) by white people aged 50 and above.

    I cannot go through my elected officials on this because they, Republican and Democrat, are completely in favor with h1b’s as well as is Romney and Obama.