Harley-Davidson Cuts IT Staff; Shifts Some to Infosys

Harley-Davidson Factory SignHarley-Davidson is cutting 125 IT positions as part of a restructuring, though those impacted can apply for other jobs within the company, or with outsourcer Infosys.

The iconic motorcycle maker just signed a five-year deal with Infosys that includes applications management, infrastructure support and hosting services. It reportedly insisted that Infosys set up shop in Milwaukee — where Harley-Davidson is based — if it wanted the contract. The facility will be Infosys’ 18th tech center in the United States. The company has pledged to hire nearly 2,000 people in the United States this year.

Initially, the Infosys center will employ 125 people, 71 related to Harley-Davidson work. It will house a training center and provide consulting and system-integration services to the company’s clients in the Midwest.

“Given the rapidly changing IT landscape, a strategy partner can more effectively provide technology-related services in many areas, including data network engineering and data center operations,” Harley-Davidson VP and CIO David Cotteleer said.

Infosys will operate a data center in nearby Franklin.

Though 83 of the displaced workers are in Milwaukee, other sites are affected as well. Three of eight IT positions at Harley’s Kansas City manufacturing plant are being eliminated.

Meanwhile, the motorcycle maker is creating 68 new IT positions in service delivery management.

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135 Responses to “Harley-Davidson Cuts IT Staff; Shifts Some to Infosys”

  1. Legal Expert

    If I worked at Harley-Davidson, and worked in IT, and was laid off.. I would be filing one heck of a “displaced by H-1b” lawsuit. Infosys is about 99% guest workers, so it would be very easy to prove you were displaced by an H-1b.

  2. John Mith

    As a Harley Davidson owner and an IT worker I find this REALLY dissapointing. I bought my Harley because it was an American made motorcycle. What’s next Harley? Chinese assembly on the bikes? This is NOT cool!

  3. Peter Tomasello

    I honestly thought that Harley Davidson was one of the last True Blue American companies…Woe was I wrong. Dear Gov’t. Where are the incentives to keep jobs here. There really aren’t any are there?

    • You probably should at least double your calculation to get close to the loaded rate. If the IT employees were costing Harley-Davidson only $65k/year on average, they would never outsource the work.

  4. MidwestITGut

    Having lived through the outsourcing at a major financial concern of application dev and infrastructure to a leading outsourcer, I can only say it was widely considered a disaster by the users and had a major negative effect on both the employees and customers.

    The help desk became a joke, application development moved to a crawl, and the international CIO who pushed the deal ‘retired’ only to show up as an exec at the outsourcer (can you say kickback). Course they handed out bonuses to the execs.

    I offer my sympathies to both the employees and customers of Harley.

  5. The direction US corporations are going regarding outsourcing disgusts me. I did not go through 4 years of Comp Sci in college just to have my job stolen by someone who will work for 10¢ a day. This is ridiculous. I hope Infosys burns to the ground. Terrible people.

    • Your Job? Who said you were owed anything? The idea of going to college is just that to educate yourself…what’s stopping you from becoming a consultant and getting a contract from Infosys to handle some of the work load. These people are not stealing anything..they made themselves available for lower wages “here” because where they are from that is a very high wage. Where is the innovation from this degree? Here you are looking for a handout, expecting a company to give you a job just because you went to college so you can live the “American dream” …Well it is time to wake up and smell the coffee… As a private institution, Harley can do whatever they like and guess what no one is going to stop buying their goods just because they outsourced their IT… Maybe you should be on endgadget.com and see what new is coming out and how you can apply yourself and innovate…use kickstart to assist funding your great idea, form a company and then let us see you hire “Americans” and not want to coup profits like the rest. Talk is cheap

      • Consumer

        Well said Mikey….Everybody wants to earn profits…but nobody wants to spend time thinking where is the profit going to come from….everybody wants to be rich…everybody wants money…me 2…..

        • Well for the sake of putting bread on your table…

          I want to see more people talking about innovation rather than what some company owes them because they went to college blah blah blah.. They can hire who they want.. You can start to complain when the federal govt starts to hire L1, H-1B ect ect….but HARLEY.. really HARLEY.. how many of you on this blog actually ride motorcycles? Do you really need to buy one? So if they outsource to south of the border who cares..just let them know you aren’t satisfied by not buying their products. Country first is a fallacy and those ideologies went away a long long time ago so stop fooling yourselves. The only way forward in the “NEW” economy are new frontiers in Technology/bio science/ renewable energy..so get your brains cracking on the movement and see what can come out. If and I mean IF they do bring jobs back here and bring back manufacturing, the cost of those goods would soar in comparison to what we pay now for tech goods and for everything else.. so please unless you are willing to take the same rate of pay as those individuals overseas you essentially are wasting your time because the cost of everything else will go up and so it would be as if you didn’t have a job in the first place because you won’t be able to afford them.

          • RegularGuy

            Actually, I do own a Harley. It’s the third one I’ve owned, and the first one I bought new. A big reason for buying it was because it’s an American company. I know I spent more than I would have for an import bike. Harley makes a fine product, too. We didn’t buy American televisions and now there are none.

            I’m feeling a lot less ‘warm and fuzzy’ about H-D now.

            If H-D management decides that being an American producer is not a big asset to them, fine. I don’t understand why a company would want to tarnish a unique asset by shipping essential jobs overseas. I freely admit that I don’t have an MBA, and Wall Street isn’t grading me based on next quarter’s earnings.

            It’s only a few days until the annual Sturgis Rally. I won’t be there, but I hope this outsourcing deal generates a lot of negative buzz for the company among Harley devotees.

        • A US citizen doesn’t have to fill any job.. Nice thinking though. There is no entitlement you work and you earn and if you’re hired great and if not look somewhere else. No company is entitled to hire anyone from any set location(state or country). (Background: I am a Sr. Level IT Security analyst). I have been laid off from other positions due to downsizing or who knows maybe replacement by individuals who would work for less… nothing is owed to me and no citizen should expect that either. The days of companies being loyal to citizens/commonwealth ect ect are gone. If Infosys is such a bad company how is it that they are still in business???? They are doing something right at some level and it isn’t for the average citizen to discern what HARLEY is doing.. they are a private institution and allowed to do whatever they like. I see tons of jobs on USA Jobs that need filling for IT and otherwise.. So it isn’t for lack of jobs .. people in this country need to wake up and realize that they are being left holding the empty bag of promises and so it is time to drop the bag and do what you can, the best way you can for you and your family instead of expecting some false sense of patriotism from a PRIVATE company that is for PROFIT.

          • H1B Employee Working in USA

            Absolutely right and thought provoking comment. There are plenty of IT jobs available in the market. Let me tell you something H1B consultants are not cheap. They are very expensive. I am working as a Business Analyst and my company is getting $90/hr for me giving me only $42.5/hr. So they are making pretty big bucks. Jobs are out there all you need to do is to get a certification in any IT field and you can make $60-$70/hr easily.
            Another note, that there are lot of restrictions on H1B and L1B visas these days. Everyone is getting rejected. That’s why there is a huge demand in market right now. Take advantage before it gets too late.

            Peace !!

      • oregon111

        Mikey, who says you get to keep your money???

        we, the people of the united states are going to take away all your money thru taxes — we are going to put the top tax rate back into the 90s

        this is OUR country — as in the majority of us rule — you won’t have a pot to p!s in when we get thru with you

  6. Harley should be taking a very good look at what GM is doing in bringing jobs back on-shore. This is not going to help them with their customer base. Does this make a differance in customer preferences. I know I won’t buy a car that isn’t made in the US anymore and I certainly would never buy a Jaguar.

    • Consumer

      You do realize that most of the parts now a days are manufactured in China. Oops…not just parts…but almost everything…you might want to look at the label and search for Made in….You might be surprised…..

      • Every car sold in the US has to have a manufactured in the US content label – which includes the percentage of parts too. In Auto’s at least you can know where something is made. Should be like that for every product. It isn’t true that most car parts are manufactured in China.

    • Mark M.

      Than why would you buy an “American” car made in Vancouver, when you can buy a real American car actually built in America by Americans using largely American parts…like the Honda Accord.

      “American” cars are for suckers.

  7. lautermilch

    It looks great on paper but with the outsourcing projects I have seen it does not work well. Sure, the helpdesk stats will look great on paper but when you have people that are contractors taking care of you they will not do as good or fast of a job as your own employees. I was involved with one major retailer that did this to almost 1K workers and the project was cancelled a year later and they hired back a lot of the former staff FOR LESS MONEY!!

  8. I agree with the posters’ concerns about whether Infosys will bring in H-1B workers. If so, we know this is BS, because H1-B workers are only supposed to be for ‘hard to fill’ positions, and yet a bunch of IT staff are likely jobless.
    We’ve seen companies exploit this before, yet the president nor congress hold anyone accountable for obvious (lobbyist) reasons.

      • Definition of hard to fill ?

        What if you wanted to get a Sr. Tech at 45000 per/yr.. how many Sr. Techs would take it?(That could be a definition of hard to fill)..Call center/helpdesk for $35000 per/yr maybe? (hard to fill at that price)… What something is “supposed” to be used for and what it can actually be used for are two different things.. There in lies the hole. These companies were never about American.. they built a brand around the name to foster support but all the while looking for ways to bring in more profits.. Can’t blame them..because the people here still buy their products.. You don’t NEED a harley.. it is an extra gadget so when they do things like this.. then a collective whole stops buying and lets them feel the pinch is the only way to make a difference.

        • H1B Employee Working in USA

          I totally agree. The only way to make a difference is to make them feel. Stop buying there products. Launch a social network signing petitions to stop outsourcing.

  9. I’d like to know how we can monitor Infosys’ hiring to ensure that the 2000 jobs hired for in the US actually go to US Citizens and not H1B workers. All they are really doing is creating 2000 H1B jobs, I believe. If this new center will be their 18th, what is the staffing at the other comprised of? It should be easy to check. Of course, our own government has most of its IT projects run by offshore/H1B consultants so why should we expect the last true-blue company to be any different. So for this H-D specific center, they are hiring 71 H-D specific people to replace 125 being fired (and they will have 125 total people hired in the new center because it services other clients as well). Will they hire some of the 125 just fired?

    • More than likely, if they get the chance, they will hire as many of those people as possible, for less money, and non-union wage scale. They could keep the knowledge base, and be a greater success by having on-boarded these people.
      They’re also the perfect people to “squeeze” – put them in pseudo-management roles, so any escalations go to them (to smooth things over.) They won’t be talking smack about their new co-workers, no matter how inept they are – because they’ll be trying to keep whatever job they do have.

  10. Mikoloe

    Well, I always wanted a Harley~ maybe I can afford one now that they wont be worth as much. It was just a name brand. I’m sure they can sell Harley’s with a big basket on the back now. Maybe cut back the HP to a 250cc and call it a Harley Rupee.

  11. Infosys are a giant H-1b body shop. They will import low wage scabs to do the American work, regardless of location. What’s funny is Now Harley has to hire 68 “service delivery managers” to manage the outsourcer. Doomed to failure. Here is a tip: Your employees buy your products…Pay local, State, And Federal Taxes, which support the infrastructure your company needs to operate. The Indian Body shop employees will all be based in India eventually even if they start out with american hires who will train their replacements. When you outsource work, you are giving up your customers, those people you fired have families, relatives etc. Why do american companies insist on committing suicide to save a few pennies?

    • Hummm… listen to yourself… really now… Members of congress punishing a PRIVATE for profit company for hiring or doing what they want to do to ensure their business model survives the current economy? What is stopping you or any other individual (assuming you ride motorcycles) from boycotting Harley and subsidiaries for at least 6 months to a year to show your displeasure? Nothing will be done and it is just after all hot air.

  12. Gregg Turner

    This is one of the last great american companies here in the United States. We as American citizens are the only thing standing between Capitalism and whats left of democracy. Capitalism is only good when the perpetrators are patriots but these guys are not. They are greedy assed chairmen who sit on a board and dictate to coorporate exec’s as to how much money they can make themselves by cutting jobs or careers short and outsource those same jobs to foreign countries so that they can pocket your money. I can’t see how a company like Harley could outsource IT services even in this global economy. This company sells a product which is unique and revered all over the world. 200 years ago people needed to make sacrifices that were not made all the way up to this day and we still dont want to make those sacrifices. Democracy is dying.

    • You are absolutely correct. What difference does it make if corporations make a ton of money and kick it upstairs? How does that benefit American society? I worked for a corporation that spread the wealth. It can be done.

      • H1B Employee Working in USA

        Correct, this is also harmful for the economy. It’s the outflow of American Dollar to another country. What an irony, 0.1% of the people in a country enjoying wealth at the cost of the rest of the fellow citizen. SHAME

  13. Early Cuyler

    This shouldn’t come as a surprise to anyone who’s observed Harley over the years. Back in the 70’s they were using Honda (Keihin) carburators, Japanese steel, and various foreign parts. In the 80’s, after successfully lobbying the Reagan Administration to enact a stiff tariff on imports over 699 cc’s, they modernized their main plant with millions-worth of Japanese machine tools. And this at a time when the American machine tool industry was collapsing.

    Now, I’m ok with them making whatever strategic decisions they see fit, but they need to knock off the “All-American” bilge. Harley is about as All-American as Pakistani food. Or Fiat-owned Chrysler.

  14. H1B Employee Working in USA

    Just to clear everyone commenting above against H1-B. Understand what H1B is first. H1B can’t work as an offshore consultant. If a person is H1B, he’ll be working in USA on-site. Plus these H1B consultants are extremely expensive. Outsourcing means, that Infosys will be hiring a team within India and taking care of all the IT operation in a offsite location to reduce the cost. I am totally against outsourcing of jobs, just wanted you to understand how things work.

    Now for example if an H1B working here in USA getting $90/hr. A guy working in a offshore location will get $25/hr, which can save a company lot of money, but again i think Country/People are more important than money. A company should consider employing more citizen rather than making billions. It’s ok to make few Billion instead making Billions.

    Fact is, Money hunger never ends. I am sure this will bounce back really bad for all these companies.

    USA citizens got the first right to get the job and if not than it could be given to an H1B or outsourced.


      • H1B’s are only supposed to be hired if no US citizen is available to fill the position. However, most companies abuse this policy because the H1B will work for a few dollars less. That’s been my experience…

        • Well.. If someone is willing to work for less then who is to blame? The system has been designed to be unfair to many people and those overseas or on visas get in where they can fit in.. The law was designed with that loop hole so don’t try to make excuses or blame the company.. Those who passed them knew what they were doing…they could easily tighten up those laws and make it mandatory with HUGE fines so as to deter any thought of abusing the laws but they don’t because they are in bed with those very same companies and the average citizen is left holding the bag of empty American dream promises and a false sense of entitlement.

        • RegularGuy

          There’s at least one video on the ‘Net taken at a seminar which teaches companies how to comply with the letter of the H1B law, but yet sidestep it to bring in a foreign national.

          The speakers explain how to write impossible job descriptions; how to document flaws in all domestic candidates, etc.

          Then they detail the steps to follow to get an H1B visa approved. It’s basically a ‘blueprint’ on how to disenfranchise American workers. You’d think the ‘consultant’ could at least be charged with conspiracy to commit fraud.

  15. Daniel M

    More outsourcing, more H1-B, disgusting. The Corporate capitalism at the extreme, the killing of the middle class, how much is enough?…billions, trillions?…greed, that is what is all about, this company HD sells thousands of bikes all over the world, they make billions but…….the new Corporate Capitalism in partnership with a “sold out” Government make the new American Monarchy of the 21st Century…

  16. Just another example of who big business buys Congressmen so that their greedy asses can get a bigger bonus for cutting costs and sending more American dollars overseas where it won’t be spent in our economy. Here’s a novel idea Congress. TRAIN AMERICANS!!! Make it easier for AMERICANS to receive these jobs. I work as a SAP Consultant. I am tired of seeing the rates keep going down for American workers just so Indians can take over the SAP market both as consultants and recruiters. Just another example of how Congress is looking out for their own pockets and not the AMERICAN WORKER!

  17. Daniel M

    This is what we get, when we have a bought up Government, that allows this kind of Corporate behavior, outsourcing American workers, but still selling its products to American people. Lobbying (bribing) of politicians permits this kind of outraged abuse of taxpayers…

    The irony, I am an IT unemployed, with 4 years College Degree, and over 20 of IT experience, replaced by H1-B and the unemployment department sends me emails, offering Computer Training…what a pathetic state of affairs. US has become a Corporate Aristocracy, bought up politicians, bribed by its Corporate Masters…………

  18. Wow, there sure are a lot of comments here from people jumping to conclusions. It is scary when I read of people wanting “the government” (local, state, federal??) to interfere and stop private companies from choosing who they sign contracts with to do work for them. I have been unemployed for several years but not willing to give up my or anyone’s freedom to the government.

    Harley-Davidson is in the motorcycle business. It is probably wise for them to pay someone else for technology services. Outsourcing does require a lot of management though. The company will usually need one IT person for every three that are outsourced.

    • Harley is more than a motorcycle business – they’ve worked quite hard to develop a particular image and when people buy a Harley they are buying into a culture, not just buying a motorcycle. That culture happens to be distinctly pro-American and something like this is a slap in the face to that distinctly pro-American customer base. Hand-in-hand with that pro-American image is a desire for independence and a desire for government to not interfere in their lives. There’s the problem – government does not interfere and the company they believed in sells them out. The market that buys these Harleys can now decide what to do about it. The government won’t interfere and make them reconsider but I bet tens of thousands of riders can show up at their corporate doorstep demanding an explanation and possibly get some action. Of course the shareholders who are demanding increased profits would be looking for lower costs but there should be a way to appease both – see the other post on rural onshoring.

    • BY Doug…. read By went Through it… He is dead on. Just experienced it today. Had a Lotus Notes question.. called the IT (outsorced) helpless desk. They had no clue how to answer my question. They had to research the problem.. after 20 min I gave up told them to close the call. Cost me more time than it was worth. I ended up finding another co-worker locally that had done this before. In the past we had that talent locally, I was much more productive. The CIO’s are getting there bonus and pat on the back for short term vision.

      • Doug –

        Next time, leave the ticket in the system, until someone has the correct answer for you. Instantly reply to every ticket update, and keep the ball in their court. Even saying, “This did not solve my problem.” in the ticket every time will be useful.

        Consistently prove, from a business standpoint, that this contract isn’t working, using the tickets as ammunition.
        Forward the failed/useless tickets to management every time you are delayed or get incorrect information. Don’t allow them to count it as a “completed” ticket in any way.
        Ask management to send out regular IT Satisfaction surveys from a “per ticket” basis – and get real world feedback. If technically they suck, let it be identified.

        The number of contact replies which don’t move the tickets forward, plus the aging of tickets, plus direct complaints “to management” make it abundantly clear if they can’t meet expectations, the company needs to resolve the issue.

    • agreeable

      I think that the point of bringing in ‘the goverment’, is that they can limit the number of visas issued to foreign nationals. It is ironic that the current administration (along with the past one) issues many work visa and then complains about American unemployment.

  19. Disgusted in Jersey

    As an IT guy and Harley Owner I am disgusted. Disgusted that there is not more of a push to keep jobs like this IN this country and to have US citizens working in those positions. It has become increasingly difficult to find a position that the hiring manager is not or middle eastern tendencies. When being interviewed I have always been on the short list but side stepped by candidate from another country. The shock and slap in the face is when the IT staff of Indians gets told that they are now being outsourced to a company in India. The majority of the money that these H-1b workers make is being sent back to their country to support their families and to pay their way to this country to continue the cycle all over again. How can we stop the bleeding of the US?

    • I agreed with outsourcing. I am with 11 years of IT experience not able to hold job more than 6 Month OR Most Three Years. What’s make me Mad that H1 will hold there jab after 3three years, even when company rules that you not suppose to continue… need to take 6 month to 1 years break in order to join back. One of the Big Company I was in most H1 dose not come under this rule… job code and job work is being shared via i-phone in order to them to survive 🙂 with newly join so called expert H1 Boy OR Girl. If this type of support get to US citizen I am sure we are in same level OR More than New H1 ( Just Finished High school and has done some crash course got job and consider as a exp) .

      • brotherj

        Wow, I have no idea what you are trying to say. I can only hope that you are not a product of US educational system. You grammar and sentence structure is atrocious. Your spelling is horrible and your logic, the little which I can detect is weak.

        Have you stopped to consider that perhaps the reason you cannot obtain or retain a position is merely that you are not able to do the job? In most IT jobs today communication is high on the list of requirements. Sad as it is, perhaps the H1’s have better communication skills and are therefore more valuable to the organization.

  20. Rob Horton

    I have a problem with using the H1B body shop as it was put. I am in IT and operate a rural onshoring center at our company in Ohio that uses displaced AMERICANS, not out of country workers. A company is a for-profit venture and regulation against cost-cutting and efficiency bothers me. That being said it still angers me when companies do this. I have chosen to rely on my ability to train US citizens and compete directly, not through Congressional intervention. I do agree with taking your money elsewhere to buy another company’s products and it should be utilized more often than regulation. Just my 2 cents.

    • dtschaefer


      Congressional intervention is not needed. We just need to enforce laws that are already on the books. InfoSys has allegedly violated visa and tax laws. Even if InfoSys is innocent, it’s still reasonable to question the ethics of Harley’s decision before InfoSys’s situation has been ironed out.

      I too am all for competition, but I also support the concept of import and export laws. These laws apply whether you’re importing tangible goods or cheap labor. In either case, countries have a right to protect their own population from foreign exploitation.

      Personally, I’ve been to India many times, and I’ve worked with some highly skilled people in India. I have deep respect for them, but I have deeper respect for Americans. That doesn’t make me racist – I’m simply an American, and my first instinct is to take care of my own family before taking care of someone else’s.

      • went through it

        I also have been to India to see these providers in action. If contracts are written properly, appropriate costs are considered, and staffing is reviewed by the client there are possibilities of success in moderation. One major issue which is often missed is India is in the phase of mass IT growth such as the US went through back in the mid to late 90’s early 2000. There is a lack of staff with proper skill sets, providers hire staff lacking skills to address critical systems this leads to poor service. The Indians I worked with were great people trying very hard to perform well and delivery solid service. They were just not properly suited for the positions they were put in or lacked experience. This was a combination of the provider not staffing properly and the client not paying for what they wanted with a single minded goal of just cutting major costs. I have discussed with other IT managers the same provider and great service…. difference being major price differences between similar contracts sizes. not about poor negotiation more about pure cost cutting and then having unrealistic expectations for what would be provided.

    • Rob, I love your idea of rural onshoring and being a person who grew up in rural western PA, I always felt that the area could sustain a onshore consulting company not only working with displaced workers of which there are many in the area but setting up training centers and partnerships with the local schools and colleges and tech schools to get trained resources. I applaud your efforts and agree with your belief that regulation is not always the best answer.

  21. dtschaefer

    I’m floored. While InfoSys is being accused of gross violations of US visa and tax laws, Harley forges an alliance with them. Methinks Harley needs to fire the Einstein who orchestrated this PR nightmare.

  22. went through it

    Went through one of these that went to another offshore firm. It failed miserably and the firm hired back portions of the original IT staff and then found another firm based in near north country to fill all end user facing services plus highly technical roles (additional cost). Both providers then supported the firm plus the added internal IT staff. Terrible service, increased down time, poor execution by the provider, missed most SLA’s or argued about how to measure them till blue in the face. Once the provider is in they usually fail to deliver to agreed upon deliverables but they then have you over a barrel. I would question the exec management…typical exercise in these efforts include adding additional providers and hire backs, how this could these types of models possibly be a money saver…. it’s a marketing IT exec spinning numbers that people just can’t follow. By the time internal management figures out it’s a mess and more costly the CIO has moved on to another role or firm to do this all over again. Hyaenas of IT that look for firms that have CEO, CFO, COO’s that do not fully understand IT and outsourcing. Slick talking CIO moves in and spins this with special bonuses tied to execution and success. Three years and out, there’s a group of CIO’s developing that just focus on this. Scavengers really not concerned about the long term health of a company but rather just their own finanicial benifits. How many folks have seen the provider change billing to meet an exec need, still bills to the client just delivers in different time frames or other billables areas to slip by cost increases…. super sketchy. Internal staff served by IT end up giving up, first complain, exec spins that as growing pains, then the clients being serviced finally give up and accept lousy service which is then used by the CIO’s to show service improvement due to a drop off of complaints. That’s when staff look to other resources and shadow IT support starts to show up as folks seek alternative resources to get better help. Or CIO’s then throw support staff into the field to quiet trouble locations. Suddenly adding local office resources? It helps the office but not the firm…. such spin, smoke and mirrors and BS. When did the CIO role become self promoting, non-technical, acronym speaking marketing people seeking roles outside of IT? Not all CIO’s are like this but there’s a growing trend. Not against outsourcing as a whole as many parts benefit small and medium size firms that do not have the same resources as large firms. Whole department outsourcing such as this with a total of 125 staff ends up a mess. Watch as this will spin back like many firms however it will take 3-5 years which is usually a combination of the original outsource agreement time frame and a period of time to realize the mistake… 12-18 months to realize the issue and attempt to resolve internally, 6-12 months of effort to attempt resolution adding services and staff, 6-12 months of contract negotiation and hiring to get back to internal. Plus usual time buyers for CIO such as replacing managers and directors which then need time to ramp up. Have seen it several times now and the firms are back to internal and new CIO’s.

  23. Early Cuyler

    Let’s also not fail to consider the looming Obamacare effect. Companies are scrambling to find ways to cut white-collar, benefit-heavy staff before the law kicks in.

    • Let’s not waste an opportunity to simultaneously demonstrate complete ignorance of not one, but two, issues…

      Do you have any idea what you’re talking about at ALL? Health care costs were skyrocketing LONG before “Obamacare” came into existence. Oursourcing has been an issue for 15+ years…

      Connnecting “Obamacare” with “outsourcing” is base and silly. Doing so does nothing to solve the issues surrounding either situation. Doing so is insulting to those of us that actually think our way through our daily lives vs. blindly following the rhetoric and pablum of EITHER political party…

      • RegularGuy

        I agree there’s a very tenuous (if any) connection between Obamacare and outsourcing, but I don’t feel the same way about other HHS mandates. As of August 1 (yesterday) a new federal mandate from HHS took effect which requires almost all companies to provide free birth control to employees. Those kind of benefit mandates are neatly avoided by having contract help staffing your company.

        And understand that I’m not arguing for or against the issue of birth control. I’m commenting solely on the fact that an unfunded federal mandate can increase the cost burden on employers – with the consequence that they will shed employees.

      • Mark M.

        What’s silly about noting that a $2000 penalty tax (within 2 years) if you fail to offer at least $10K worth of “one size fits all” HHS approved insurance per family has a detrimental impact upon hiring? Do you doubt the effect of basic disincentives for maintaining an in-house headcount?, or do you accept that that is the price we must pay (i.e., the destruction of the entire for profit health insurance industry) so that the people that crippled it can swoop in and “save” us with the most dysfunctional and expensive “free” healthcare yet seen?

      • Ummmmmm… No… The new law does NOT require companies to provide “free birthcontrol”… When are people going to go *read the actual damned law* before commenting… The law requires insurance companies to provide zero cost contraceptives… In other words, your prescription plan must provide free birth control… This isn’t a “benefit mandate”… Gads…

      • RegularGuy

        “Zero cost”. In what universe does ‘zero cost’ NOT equal ‘FREE’? If I get something for ‘zero cost’, I got it for FREE.

        Who will pay for the ‘zero cost’ contraceptives? The insurance companies? Not likely.

        The mandate will be paid for by insurance premiums; premiums paid in part by the employer and in part by the employee.

        Before you comment again, remember ‘TANSTAAFL’

        (There Ain’t No Such Thing As A Free Lunch)

  24. This is tragic. It is nothing more than replacing workers with a lower cost offshore replacements. I have personally witnessed this twice and each time it failed. The most notable loss is with imagination. Great automatons but they just do not have it.

    If you want to sell bikes, then you need people that make money and can afford your product. I have not seen many Indian guys riding!

    Finally, I own, with my sons 3 Harleys and this makes me very saddened. I have one more to buy and will now consider alternatives.

  25. h1bIndianinUSA

    Please do something about this Infosys , i have real time IT experience of 8years and just because they get OPT graduates for cheaper labor in USA they will hire them if they cannot get from India, Stop offering OPT for recent graduates and stop H1’s and the problem is solved and all the SAP rates would be as they were earlier.

    The Infosys people have lot of attitude problems will mess up the work environment.

  26. Harley-Davidson sells its motorcycles in India. India has HUGE consumers. Harley is getting a big market to sell motorcycles in return for outsourcing few jobs. They got to cut a deal with Indian consumers. Long live capitalism. Either you find a way to survive or perish. Don’t need whiners here.

    • “By Right”… Please… Suggest that you need to spend a little time schooling in “critical reasoning”… (1) There is no indication in the article that any jobs are being moved to India… (2) There is no indication that any deal was cut with anyone (3) It isn’t possible for “Harley Davidson” to “cut a deal” with “Indian consumers”… If there is a market for Harley Davidson motorcycles in India, then that market will exist irrespective of whether Harley Davidson outsources jobs to India… Thinking otherwise is indicative of a severe misunderstanding of how the world (including “capitalism”) works…

      Additionally… No one is whining… Outsourcing is a huge problem in the US… The problem centers on the fact that some US companies focus solely on cost, irrespective of delivered service… The trend to outsource jobs is tapering significantly, as companies are finally discovering (albeit slowly) that outsourcing is almost never going to deliver any kind of long term savings…

      Honestly, if you’re not a US Citizen, then your opinion, frankly, is not really relevant.

    • RegularGuy

      H-D occupies a unique position in the US market. In its market it has some of the same mystique Apple Computer enjoys. In India, it is no different than any Japanese, German, or Italian motorcycle maker.

      All I see this outsourcing doing is chipping away at what makes people buy Harleys instead of imports.

    • Mark M.

      I am all for outsourcing because I believe in the market an not protectionism, know it ultimately leads to new opportunities (several largely Indian inspired open source projects have added to the vitality of the market) and know that the attempt to apply it to domestic corporate work has largely been a failure. I’m even somewhat suspicious of the people who are complaining, because the unemployment rate for skilled (5 to 10 years) .Net and Java developers is effectively at 0%.

      But I’d like to see all these consumers in India buying $20,000 motorcycles. Even if there was such a market, when will Tata drop a bomb on the market by introducing a really bad copy that sells for $500?

    • Yes.

      It’s time for the Americans who grumble about this to get off their collective asses and start the businesses which can COMPETE with Infosys.

      Don’t want L1, B1? Talk with your Congressman! Hell, BECOME one and help FIX the problems!

      • Well… We’ll just see who wins the competition in the “long run” won’t we… The only “axis” for competition isn’t cost… When the pendulum swings back toward actual *quality*, we’ll see who’s left standing…

  27. By Sherry Robles

    All i have to say is “How do these companys who are outsourcing every job in the usa and laying folks off expect us to buy their products”? I guess they think that we will beable to buy them with
    unemployment money and foodstamps.Wake up big companys when no one can buy your goods then i guess youll have to bring these jobs back.

    • James Griffin

      They expect to sell there products overseas, with all the new middle class employees they are creating, Also were are the presidential candidates on this H1 and L1 issue?

  28. RegularGuy

    I wonder how many ‘Infosys’ outsource deals it will take for the H1-B program to realize all they are doing is shipping American IT jobs overseas. Oh, the job stays in the U.S., but the worker arrives from some third world country.

    Until unemployment drops significantly, I think the H1-B program should be suspended – immediately. The program was set up when unemployment was low, and there was a legitimate need to look offshore for talent. It has morphed into something much more ominous.

    • H1B Employee Working in USA

      Again you need to know the difference between H1 and L1. There is no limit for L1 visas, all the workers that are coming to USA from India are on L1 visas, which is screwing the job market. There is a quota of only 60k H1B visas every year which is distributed among all the possible jobs in USA not IT only, e.g. doctors, engineers, professors, scientists etc. All the companies getting these staff on L1 visas and make them work like slaves.

      So voice against L1, and everything will be alright.

      • macgyver1948

        Ah yes, the old L1 Visa routine…. Well as this, and other out sourcing methods, keeps up the nearest “local” job for an American worker might be the short commute to Turkey or maybe in Africa some place. American Corporations are looking to cut their expenses at the expense of the American Worker. One way or another we will be BAINed so the corporate investors can be happy. Hi Mitt, :-))).

      • RegularGuy

        Thank you for the reply. One reason I rankle about H1-B visas is that the largest H1-B employer in my state is the state university system. Roughly half of the state university system’s operating budget comes from state revenues, so not only are we doling out American jobs to foreigners during extraordinarily high domestic unemployment, taxpayers are subsidizing the effort.

        But you’re correct, the L1 is just as much a problem as the H1.

        • H1B Employee Working in USA

          There is another category called B1, another draw back about L1s is that there spouse get work any where status just like american citizen, and H1B spouse can’t work anywhere. So trust me H1B is not that harmful 🙂

          I still agree with your comment that citizen should be preferred for any job.

      • Trust *ME*… H1B visas *are* harmful if you happen to be a US Citizen that is qualified to occupy a job currently occupied by an H1B visa recipient… I’m a US Citizen, and I’m an Electrical Engineer. I completely understand what an H1B visa is… The H1B program, in addition to the L1 program, should both be scrapped… H1B visas endanger our industrial base and encourage industrial espionage, in addition to actively denying jobs to US technical talent . We do not have a shortage of qualified technical staff.

    • observer

      The situation is worse than what people think. Most of the outsourcing work is done remotely from overseas countries. No visa is needed. Don’t need H1, L1 or whatever visas. And Infosys is not the only one. There are hundreds of other foreign companies like that out there. To deteriorate the economy further, American companies also do the same and have overseas branches with foreigners doing the work remotely from their countries. So here you have both foreign companies and American companies join forces together to move jobs offshore. To be safe, maybe go into nursing or cooking, as these types of jobs cannot be done remotely.

    • RegularGuy

      An organized, formal boycott isn’t necessary. Once Harley owners and potential buyers realize that there isn’t much “America” in their products, they will have to compete with the other motorcycle manufacturers on price, features and reliability.

      Being an iconic American company is a major asset. Once H-D squanders that asset away, they could become the next Zenith.

      As for politicians, they won’t even discuss the ‘hidden’ things like foreign worker visas. They would much rather whip liberals and conservatives into a distracted frenzy arguing about abortion or birth control. Until you lose your job to a foreign outsourcing, there just isn’t enough emotion to get people worked up.

  29. t.taxpayer

    This is a sad day for this country… sooner or later the CIOs sons and druthers will be washing INFOSYS employee’s cars and baby sitting their kids..oh one more thing don’t forget to speak Hindu and eat chicken tandoori!

  30. RegularGuy

    Maybe I’m trying to read too much into this announcement, but it says, “The company has pledged to hire nearly 2,000 people in the United States this year.”

    If you don’t parse that statement carefully, you get the impression that they will hire 2,000 AMERICAN workers. But that isn’t what it says. It only says “2,000 people” and that those people will be “in the United States”.

    The cynic in me says, sure, there will be 2,000 jobs, but every one of them will be filled from India, not Wisconsin.

    I wonder what Wisconsin officials think about this?

    • disgusted in Jersy

      They will ALL be from india… It makes me sick the a company like Harley Davidson would stoop so low as to hire a company that is clearly out to ruin the main stream of what the USA is ALL about

  31. Confused

    What about the big picture?

    1. The article says the 125 displaced workers can apply to work elsewhere in the company or with Infosys. So, its unlikely ALL of the workers will be displaced by people with work visas. Also, who is to say Harleys IT positions weren’t filled by people with work visas to begin with?

    2. What if outsourcing 125 jobs allows the company to realize enough savings to prosper and hire 250 new US workers in other various departments? Apple ships manufacturing overseas and that savings enables Apple to be wildly successful and hire tons of Americans at hiring paying positions. Outsourcing isn’t evil, cutting costs can allow a company to save it existing jobs and even create new ones!

    • Northern Leaf

      Apple moved their manufacturing over seas because Fox Con uses slave labor and pay their employees nothing. They had to put up ‘nets’ to keep their employees from jumping to their deaths. This is nothing for Apple to be proud of.

      Sad and bad news for HD and if I owned their stock I would sell it as this shows a lack of internal stabilty as this is a short term move. If the CIO can not get it done with the staff he has, then he is the wrong guy for that job to provide IT as a competitive weapon instead of a controlled cost to be cut. Very sad…..

    • Harley had a corporate policy not to hire H1B. You had to be a citizen or Green Card holder … that is not to say that they did not have a lot of contract workers in IT for project specific work that may have been H1B employees to whatever consulting firm they were using.

      I left HD the first time the contracted development support. They told us it would provide “24×7” support and weren’t we lucky we would not hvae to anser pager calls in the middle of the night anymore. That was quickly seen as a lie as they brought the Indian employees onsite to work the same shift … so much for 24×7 support for Global Support.

      I found it repugnant at the time with an unemployed husband and record unemployment across the board in the US that a company who remains viable based only on their “American Icon” status, would give these jobs offshore or “import” them to work on site.

      I quit largely in part to my disgust on this point and also due to the abusive hours that were being required of those who had survived the preveious 3 head-count reductions. So after another 2 years of abuse, they have thanked those hard-working employees by outsourcing even more of the IT jobs. And yes … I have no doubt those jobs will be filled up by H1Bs specifically imported for the work.

  32. Mark M.

    After 10 years of Indian outsourcing which almost always ends in catastrophic (read: expensive) failure, I’m astounded there are still CIO’s anywhere in the country who haven’t gotten the memo.

    Here’s the memo you missed, while you were sleeping under a rock, Mr. Cotteleer:
    For about 6 to 8 years now, the rest of the modern world has figured out that outsourcing has been a massive boondoggle: After denuding your company of strategic assets (that would be your skilled technical employees, -which in all fairness you can’t identify from the dogs at any rate because you put HR machine that runs on keywords in charge of finding “talent”), you replaced them with people who get paid by the number of butts they em-place in seats. These “consultants” (read: mostly incompetent people that appreciate the opportunity to live in the first world) will substitute process for value, documentation for progress, and adherence to expensive and overly complex PM snakeoil schemes for success. And in 6 to 12 months time, or 18 months if you’re really lucky, Harley Davidson’s remaining IT employees will gather for the inevitable banquet several months after whatever still unfinished goals have been whittled down into some semi-believable semblance of victory, and they will hear their CEO pronounce what a great, albeit challenging, success your initiative was, and how sad he is that you recently announced your intention to “pursue other” (as yet unnamed) “opportunities”.

    I’ve seen this speech at least 6 or 8 times myself. And lest you think I’m some embittered person, I’ve seen it as a consultant that left the W2 game a long time ago, and would never consider going back. Have skills, will travel. Your failings are my opportunities. So thank you for the opportunity.

  33. IMHO, Harley would need to be REALLY careful about getting a bad rep about this.
    Most Harley riders I know, or know of, don’t take kindly to the type of outsourcing this article is suggesting. If this gets out into their customer-world, it will pretty much cream their business.

    If I were a marketeer at Victory motorcycles, I would be jumping with glee. Imagine some little whisper dropped within the biker community, then going viral.

  34. HD-Employee

    Actually working in IT at Harley, I know more about this change than most any of you do. This is a India BASED company, they’re setting up the Infosys area in the Milwaukee plant. All the calls and such will still be in the U.S. and people will be on-site. All that said, Infosys is a bad company to work for and it’s not in the best interest of HD. Infosys is a company that targets new high school graduates that have an interest in computers. They then train them for 3 months and cram a lot and demand high hours with low wages even when they’re working at a contracted company. Also as a whole at least at my plant, they have been hiring a lot more temporary and “casual” workers and have let some actual employees go. Just figured I’d inform you guys of the situation.

    • The Infy workers will be on-site, but 99% of them will be working on an h-1b or L1 outsourcing visa. US workers will not be eligible for these jobs, so they might was well be overseas. I used to work at one of the big outsourcing companies, I know how these things work. Infosys will take on a few fired Harley IT workers, but Infy will lay them off a little later. The goal is to replace as many US workers with cheaper H1b and L1 workers. That is how the money is made.

  35. Funny timing

    I will be buying a motorcycle next weekend. Was planning on getting a Harley. Now I will look at other options. Harley-Davidson lost my business. But I’m sure they don’t care.

  36. it@infosys

    Infosys is does not, I repeat, does not do good work. They cannot handle complicated programming and get it right. They end up costing more than IBM in the long run. I own a Harley but I will not own another Harley product. It is bad enough most of the parts are made in China. We have the best technology people here in the US. I work for a company that uses Infosys, TATA, L&T. These companies have most of the technology in the US all sewn up.

    • I second that… I have had some experience working with Infosys and they just apply bodies and bill hours. The work they produce is not good. Companies are confused about outsourcing because it ends up costing them much more in the end.

  37. This average worker in this country was sold out by Wall Street and foreign interests.
    More reason why workers at all levels need to organize to fight for their rights in this country.
    We’ve let corrupt theoretical economists, businessmen, and politicians sell this country a fake bill of goods.

  38. Jimmy Lozano

    Is very Interesting to see how this article DEVELOP an idea from the all comments posted here.
    The main idea from the comments (NOT from this article) is:
    The problem of the Unemployment right now in USA are “the outsourced” specifically “the visa HB1 and L1”.
    Many of this comments are talking or are based around this idea, many of them has truly information, many other has miss-information, but before to clarify if this idea is correct to justify the Unemployment crisis in this days, we need to first ask: WHY was created those kind the visas here in USA, and (i think the most important) WHO was the INVENTOR to create those kind of Visa.
    Following the comments on this article one guy said : These visas were created WHEN in USA had many JOB and had to be filled…
    We can figure many answers why was created these kind of visas and all of them will be validated, but… the person or PEOPLES (see… like corporation, enterprise, companies, etc.) who came out with this proposal, are the same peoples who can create JOBS and, at the same time are creating UNEMPLOYMENT situation. And, under my thoughts and beliefs everything here are based of create MORE MONEY regardless of the benefit of people and / or families.

    • Losing 125 IT jobs to bring on 125 people @ Infosys?
      The *only* plus they can get out of this is a cheaper solution.
      They’ve lost the entire knowledge base by doing this, and they think it’s best for the company?

      Did Harley forget who their customers are?
      My mother-in-law would love to own a Harley – once she hears this, that dream will be going off the cliff – guaranteed.

      Goodbye Harley Davidson – Hello foreign owned, operated, and manufactured, motorcycle business with a new logo to stamp on their bikes.

  39. I will scratch owning a Harley off my bucket list. I’m a high level Software Engineer. I have been in the industry for many years and worked in Silicon Valley during the DOT COM boom for a couple of notable companies that I will leave nameless in this post. I saw first hand how the Valley was destroyed by bringing in all the H1B workers and employing half of Banglor India to work software projects. The entire valley and all the great jobs that could be available for US citizens have been taken by third rate programmers from other countries. These third rate programmers work very hard to convince the company to bring in more of their own kind and then work to filter work to coding facilities in Banglor. It’s absolutely ridiculous and I can’t believe the US government allows this to take place. These companies up in the Valley that participate in the outsourcing are scum of the earth as far as I’m concerned. The quality of software produced by the outsourcing teams is a complete joke. They have no clue about proper engineering practices and write code that is unreadable and unmaintainable. I worked as a consultant in the valley on code written by H1B’s and offshore developers and it was so fragile that any change broke the entire system. No separation of concerns. Horrible data models. No use of design patterns. Just complete spaghetti. I doubt companies save any money because it takes about 5 of them to do the job of one US developer with a decent computer science degree. Outsourcing will be the downfall of this once great country. Maybe if India has equal number of jobs to provide the US it would make sense. But since they are a third world country with live stock running around the streets not much to offer us. The biggest joke is that every one of their resumes had down for education the “Banglor Institute of Technology.” I’m guessing this is like a 6 week program on how to fake being an IT professional in the US. What a waste…

    • It irritates me that why there is not more outrage about this kind of stuff going on in IT. It’s strange when I listen to conservative talk shows and pretty much especially the GOP establishment that all they whine about is illegal immigration, yet I never hear from the same group complaining about IT offshoring and the flood of H1Bs. It seems that they are the group that support it the most. I wrote to my congressman from SC, Jim Demint about this. I wrote a long one page letter how IT offshoring has affected me and he just wrote back one sentence line that “offshoring makes us competitive”. Yet he is ardent against amnesty…..WHY do conservatives support one form of immigration?????? Is it maybe you have Indians in top GOP posts….Nikki Haley, Gov of SC…Bobby Jindhal of Lousiana…hmmm

  40. I place blame for this action squarely at the feet of Keith Wandell, the CEO of Harley Davidson. He was formerly CEO of Johnson Controls. I have worked there on several assignments and when you walk the halls of that company you honestly could not tell if you are in Milwaukee or Mumbai. His first action when a company has a bad quarter is to layoff employees. His second is to cut employee costs by outsourcing every position he possibly can. He loves to decimate united states workers by bringing in outsourced workers and taking the savings to add onto his own bonus. As long as this man is the CEO of Harley, it will not end with IT, believe me.

    • Jimmy Lozano

      —-“” His first action when a company has a bad quarter is to layoff employees. His second is to cut employee costs by outsourcing every position he possibly can. He loves to decimate united states workers by bringing in outsourced workers and taking the savings to add onto his own bonus. “”—-

      Good Point Ron

      To Me, this kind of action from all (almost) CEO in the companies of USA, is what really is causing Unemployment right now.

      • RegularGuy

        I have to agree with you. Companies used to manage themselves on a five-year time horizon. Stock traders bought and sold stocks after holding them for years. Now everything is based on the next quarter’s earnings. The average time of ownership among the S&P 500 SPDR is FIVE DAYS. Nobody thinks about ‘value’ when they trade. They just try to squeeze out a small margin, but on a huge block of stock.

        This short term thinking lets managers cannibalize the future to meet next quarter’s expectations. The rewards system for those managers is also what is driving the widening pay gap between the top and bottom of a company.

      • The problem got started with Nixon’s Ping Pong Diplomacy with China, to open up, modernize and strengthen China, to team up with China and weaken the Soviet Union. First American companies opened up manufacturing facilities over there. Companies and companies then followed suit and moved IT and other conceivable jobs overseas to other English and Spanish speaking countries as well. The result was the fall of the Soviet Union. But the Soviet is no longer the main threat to America, it is now China. The domino effect didn’t stop there. It is now eating into Western capitalism and crumbling their economies. Foreign companies are now moving on shore and taking over businesses here.

        The government tried all sorts of measures and sent us tax rebate checks to spend to crop up the economy. Why didn’t this help? Our economy is based on consumption, mass consumption. But the goods consumed are now manufactured overseas. Our spending doesn’t help our economy that much anymore, but rather it helps the economies of those countries that manufactured the things that we buy. We now have a spending but not producing society. The result is what we all have seen – bankruptcy, loss of American wealth, the weakened dollar, and loss of jobs.

  41. We can whine all we want about H1B or L1 workers. In fact, for our own mental well being, stop complaining about it, because no matter how much we complain, it’s not going to go away!

    Immigration law lobbies and powerful business lobbies in Washington, DC, have pockets too deep for us to even utter a word. If we get too loud, they’ll shut us down in a heartbeat!

    Look at all the words, stories, news, media profiles we’ve generated over the last eight to ten years on this subject. Now I ask you… what good has it done??!! Yep! Righteo! NOT A BIT!!!

  42. Jimmy Lozano

    Hey James
    I’m totally agree with everything you said in your comment, as well, I’m totally agree with the Regularguy comment’s, too.

    But, particularly in this case, when you said:

    —-“” Our economy is based on consumption, mass consumption. But the goods consumed are now manufactured overseas. Our spending doesn’t help our economy that much anymore, but rather it helps the economies of those countries that manufactured the things that we buy. We now have a spending but not producing society. The result is what we all have seen – bankruptcy, loss of American wealth, the weakened dollar, and loss of jobs. “”—-

    I think I got your idea, but I want hear from you more specifically about:

    —-“” We now have a spending but not producing society. “”—-

  43. No more these companies r american ,they r multinationals having facilities and customers across the globe. Stop complaining about outsourcing ,there r plenty of tech jobs out there for the skilled.. if you didn’t find a job , it is our problem , companies are here to make profit not for charity, and don`t forget america is capitalist and everyone in america is an immigrant , came here with some kind of a visa or without visa…

  44. oregon111

    the best way to solve outsourcing is for govt to:

    1. create a maximum compensaton limit for executives
    2. tax companies that outsource at the 99% rate – so have no profits
    3. outlaw tax deductions for outsourcing contracts
    4. imprison the rich and put them into labor camps

    notice to the rich: we, the poor are going to vote in new blood to take you down

  45. 3 years on, H-D Continuing to cut jobs (250 planned for 2015). This article and all others have not noted the number of displaced contractors. There were more than 200 of them cut the first round and more subsequently.

    Infosys is facing a discrimination lawsuit from a few of the people that raised it for having to train their replacement in 2012, only to be kicked to the curb afterwards.

    H-D says the relationship is going well. Some managers are saying they have great teams in infosys. Though the general populous of H-D are avoiding calling the helpdesk as they complain about the sub-par support and language difficulties. Others cringe at hearing about the system updates coming up as so many have been problematic with inadequate testing before hand.

    As this did turn out to be a cost savings move H-D has experienced MANY more outages than when they had IT in house, so they got what they paid for. New initiatives being claimed as successes on Infosys’s side are projects that were in the works before they took over.

    Now H-D is struggling with bike sales. Could that be because Indian is taking pride in being made in America? How can the cost of a motorcycle, including all business operations, which over 1/2 are outsourced and of those 60% are offshore, continue to claim their H-D heritage as American? Oh it’s their heritage, not current and future scope.